Anchoring Perfectionism vs Realities of Soft Mud

[Dockhead]

Ever since I switched to NG anchors in about 2001, I have been an uncompromising perfectionist where anchor setting is concerned. If the anchor budges an inch after several minutes of a full power back-down, then it's not set. Pull it up and do it again. This is sometimes tedious, but I haven't dragged anchor even once since, ohh, maybe 2001.

The problem is soft mud. NG anchors don't work well in soft mud -- they clog and refuse to bite, especially if you back down too fast without letting them settle in. My previous Rocna (55kg, 121 pounds) was horrible in soft mud because of this. My present Spade is better, but not dramatically much better. Only a Fortress, among the dozens of anchor types I've used in my cruising life, goes really well in soft mud.


Lately I've found myself lacking the patience to keep doing it over and over again. So on three separate occasions just in the last two weeks, I have lowered my standards and have spent the night with the anchor set only well enough to take a half-power backing down. Ugh. All three times were in very calm weather and with plenty of room so that if I did drag (God forbid), there would not have been dangerous consequences. Once in Kiel Fjord opposite the entrance to the Kiel Canal, once in Dover Harbour, and now here in the Solent in Osborne Bay. In all cases I let out a ton of scope (about 10:1 with heavy 12mm chain) and figured that the anchor wouldn't really be called upon to do anything anyway.


This is a bit like the way I used to manage my old CQR, which wouldn't hold in a full power back down no matter how well I'd set it. But I also dragged regularly with that anchor, sometimes in dangerous situations, and I really don't want to go back to those days.


What to do? I feel like I'm setting myself up for a midnight anchor dragging incident such as happened to me regularly in the '90's. But I'm really sick of spending an hour or even two coaxing the anchor down into the soft mud, letting it settle, pulling just a little, very gently, letting it settle again, etc., ad nauseum, while the crew are wondering whether cocktail hour will ever come. Bleh!

[Kenomac]

The full throttle for five minutes backdown as you've descrbed in the past is really not necessary. We increase our throttle gradually up to 2000 (which is full throttle in a stationary boat), look around, then leave it in reverse idle for two or three minutes to allow the chain to gradually drop down in a straight line.

After that, who knows what's going to happen with wind changes, bottom substrate etc. We set an anchor alarm and don't worry about it. If the bottom is weed, we only throttle back using no more than 1500-1800, otherwise the anchor will pull out nearly every time.

Eventually you will drag, it happens to everyone eventually. When it happens.... Pull up and reset the anchor. It's not like it's the end of the world or you goofed up.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Kenomac

. . .After that, who knows what's going to happen with wnd changes, bottom substrate etc. We set an anchor alarm and don't worry about it.

There's a lot to be said for having good insurance, eh?

[Mike OReilly]

My expereinces parallel yours Dockhead. I have never dragged with my NG anchor once it has been properly set. I'm not saying it can't, or even won't, happen. But I am a strong believer in getting a proper set.

But I agree, it can be a PITA sometimes. We're currently in a difficult spot with thick, thick weeds. I've watched nearly 1/2 dozen boats drag anchor in the week+ we've been here. In virtually all cases they dragged, not b/c of inadequate anchors or rode, but b/c they don't know how to set their anchor properly. Soft mud is a challenge. I carry a danforth and a large Fortress for those conditions. Luckily where we currently are, the substrate is firm enough for my Rocna.

So yes ... it is a PITA. I had to reset three times this last session. But once set, I sleep well, and can watch the show around me (and go off to help those in need).

Hmmm, I guess I'm not answering your question. Does this help: Suck it up man! Do the right thing. Keep setting properly. A good night sleep is worth a delay in happy hour

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Mike OReilly

My expereinces parallel yours Dockhead. I have never dragged with my NG anchor once it has been properly set. I'm not saying it can't, or even won't, happen. But I am a strong believer in getting a proper set.

But I agree, it can be a PITA sometimes. We're currently in a difficult spot with thick, thick weeds. I've watched nearly 1/2 dozen boats drag anchor in the week+ we've been here. In virtually all cases they dragged, not b/c of inadequate anchors or rode, but b/c they don't know how to set their anchor properly. Soft mud is a challenge. I carry a danforth and a large Fortress for those conditions. Luckily where we currently are, the substrate is firm enough for my Rocna.

So yes ... it is a PITA. I had to reset three times this last session. But once set, I sleep well, and can watch the show around me (and go off to help those in need).

Hmmm, I guess I'm not answering your question. Does this help: Suck it up man! Do the right thing. Keep setting properly. A good night sleep is worth a delay in happy hour

Maybe this is the time to get the Fortress out. The Fortress doesn't actually have any problem with soft mud. Dives right in.

Like most of us, I consider the Fortress to be unsuitable for overnight anchoring, but I'm not sure that the lore this is based on is actually all that valid.

I have spent a few nights lying to my Fortress in tidal waters and had no problems. That doesn't prove anything, but maybe worth some further experiments.

[Kenomac]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

There's a lot to be said for having good insurance, eh?

Must I bring up Guernsey again? You remember the day when I set my 75 pound CQR then went ashore for the entire day to cycle and watch the olympics? Whilst you were unable to set your Spade in the same substrate next to our boat.

My anchor ended up enduring many tide changes over that week (30ft as I recall).

You were simply expecting too much too soon out of your anchor.

[UNCIVILIZED]

If you're anchoring in mud that often, & it's worrying you, why not put your Fortress up forward as well? Unless you've zero room for a #2 roller, I can't see why you shouldn't do such. And even with one roller, it's often possible to lead 2 rodes through it. Especially if one is comprised partially of rope.
I don't mean that you should have 2 rodes in the same roller, where boat rodes are connected to deployed anchors. But other than that it seems to work fine. Just keep an eye out for chafe.

The other option of course, is to deploy your Fortress from the stern. And once it's set well, to walk the rode around to the bow. Releasing it from the stern only when it's cleated up forward.

Bottom line. Do you want to anchor & get on to cocktail hour, or play at anchoring the boat? For as you've stated, you've got faith in Fortress's in the mentioned conditions.

[Stumble]

This won't help, but I haven't been able to get a good set in about 10 years with any anchor. Our bottom is a soupy mud that gets thicker as you go down but never really bites. I am told about 50' below the muck surface there is some sand some places, but I have never bothered looking for it.

My advice is a NEMA 2k horn tied to an anchor alarm. Do the best you can, then allow the electronics to check for dragging.

[chris95040]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

Maybe this is the time to get the Fortress out. The Fortress doesn't actually have any problem with soft mud. Dives right in.

Like most of us, I consider the Fortress to be unsuitable for overnight anchoring, but I'm not sure that the lore this is based on is actually all that valid.

I have spent a few nights lying to my Fortress in tidal waters and had no problems. That doesn't prove anything, but maybe worth some further experiments.

I suppose it depends on what conditions you are expecting?

If higher and higher winds are anticipated in the present direction, perhaps the danforth style makes a lot of sense?

But if shifting, moderate winds / currents are more likely, then you want the thing that's most likely to get a decent reset without babysitting?

I wonder what wind speed on your bare hull corresponds to the same force that you are applying when backing down at half throttle. I bet it's a serious breeze.

[chris95040]

Originally Posted by Stumble

This won't help, but I haven't been able to get a good set in about 10 years with any anchor. Our bottom is a soupy mud that gets thicker as you go down but never really bites. I am told about 50' below the muck surface there is some sand some places, but I have never bothered looking for it.

My advice is a NEMA 2k horn tied to an anchor alarm. Do the best you can, then allow the electronics to check for dragging.

True, but when the alarm goes off and he's up on deck at 3AM on a dark rainy night, he'll probably be pissing and moaning about the anchor set rather than extolling the virtues of anchor alarms...

[Mike OReilly]

I just thought of something else. Some places are just bad for anchoring, so don't anchor there. Kinda like not going to where there are pirates.

I've moved on from places where I couldn't get a good set. Soupy, light mud substate could easily be one of those places. I was in one spot where I had soupy mud on top of a flat pan of rock. No way could I get a set. Moved on...

Part of proper anchoring is (as I know you know) choosing the right spot.

[Panope]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

Maybe this is the time to get the Fortress out. The Fortress doesn't actually have any problem with soft mud. Dives right in.

Like most of us, I consider the Fortress to be unsuitable for overnight anchoring, but I'm not sure that the lore this is based on is actually all that valid.

I have spent a few nights lying to my Fortress in tidal waters and had no problems. That doesn't prove anything, but maybe worth some further experiments.

My "re-setting" test video's support the idea that other anchors are a better choice (than Fortress) for overnight 'swinging' anchorages. But this testing was done in heavy-firm mud. In soupy-soft mud the re-set problems of a fortress may disappear because the anchor will be so deeply buried. It is very possible that in very soft mud, a Fortress is the best choice.

I would love to test my Fortress in soft mud but that seabed is rare (non-existant?) in my area.

Steve

[alctel]

I'm with you, I don't feel 'safe' unless I set at full reverse power. Mind you my engine is a 20HP yanmar 2qm20 so I'm not sure how much power that actually is!

I found that in mud that often I would start dragging at 1/2 to 2/3 reverse, but then after 30 feet or so it'd suddenly grab and then wouldn't let go, even on full reverse. (Mantus)

Other bottom types it grabbed pretty much instantly (except rock ofc). I've also given some thought to getting a decent danforth/fortress type for mud bottoms.

[thinwater]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

Maybe this is the time to get the Fortress out. The Fortress doesn't actually have any problem with soft mud. Dives right in.

Like most of us, I consider the Fortress to be unsuitable for overnight anchoring, but I'm not sure that the lore this is based on is actually all that valid.

I have spent a few nights lying to my Fortress in tidal waters and had no problems. That doesn't prove anything, but maybe worth some further experiments.

The conventional wisdom at this point, born out by limited testing, is that Fortress in soft mud will hold about the setting force in any direction without moving. It won't reset since it will be packed with mud. It may also be more than 4' underground! I was doing some testing with cable and Dyneema rodes to see if setting was better; the biggest problem was recovering the anchor at all! I'm guessing, but I believe all of the stories of Fortresses coming out on a shift involve sand and anchors that were not deeply set. In fact, a typical Fortress cannot set properly in sand with the little bitty horsepower most sailors have. It will remain very near the surface, which is OK for most anchors, but is not the most stable place for the Fortress.

The bottom line is that with enough engine, it can be pretty secure in a shift. On the other hand, if you set it with 1000 pounds (40-50 hp) it will take 1000 pounds to break it loose (very rough figures), which is doable but laborious.

If the mud is really terrible, and I expect big wind and a shift, my preference is to set 2 anchors in a V, with the Fortress farther taking the load, and the NG nearer, handling the shift. One common rode.

Doubling Up: Full-size Tandem Anchoring - Practical Sailor Print Edition Article

I know one of the PS guys is digging into this topic (breakout force) soon.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by UNCIVILIZED

If you're anchoring in mud that often, & it's worrying you, why not put your Fortress up forward as well? Unless you've zero room for a #2 roller, I can't see why you shouldn't do such. And even with one roller, it's often possible to lead 2 rodes through it. Especially if one is comprised partially of rope.
I don't mean that you should have 2 rodes in the same roller, where boat rodes are connected to deployed anchors. But other than that it seems to work fine. Just keep an eye out for chafe.

The other option of course, is to deploy your Fortress from the stern. And once it's set well, to walk the rode around to the bow. Releasing it from the stern only when it's cleated up forward.

Bottom line. Do you want to anchor & get on to cocktail hour, or play at anchoring the boat? For as you've stated, you've got faith in Fortress's in the mentioned conditions.

Yes, and I really don't have any trouble deploying the Fortress. I have a very large anchor locker (I can crouch in it) and the Fortress just lives inside it with 150 meters of polyester rode and a chain leader all rigged and ready to go. All I have to do is reach in and throw it out. I just didn't think about it. Next time maybe I'll try it.