Should I Drop the Rudder Before it Freezes

[BlueChicago]

The spade rudder on my sailboat is showing high moisture meter readings. There are no splits, cracks, weeping, blisters, etc. that I can detect.

She has spent the last 35 or so summers sailing around the Chicago area on Lake Michigan, and has spent the winters indoors, unheated. This winter she will sit outside to allow the hull to dry after a hull peel because of blisters.

Since I just purchased the boat, I don't know how long the rudder has been wet, and was wondering if I should drop the rudder (or have the yard drop it) and store it indoors this winter to prevent it from repeatedly freezing and thawing. Also, to possibly drill a few holes to let some of the moisture drain.

My list of winter projects for the boat are relatively extensive, and I really want it back in the water come spring, so I was hoping to let the rudder go another season.

Thoughts? Suggestions? All would be greatly appreciated.

-BC

[Suijin]

That's a tough one. Very few rudders are really "dry" inside. If it's been stored in winter unheated, another season unheated is unlikely to make much of a difference. I would say that if you're going to head offshore in the boat, with that old of a rudder you might want to give it a closer inspection, but if you're just sailing locally I probably would not worry about it until there was some evidence of it starting to fail, but that's just me. It's a matter of how much risk you're willing to tolerate. The issue you should be concerned about is the metal "wings" on the post that are encapsulated in the rudder breaking free from the post. There's no way to determine their condition without opening the rudder up for inspection.

[John_Trusty]

Since it will be dry for the winter, it really is not much work to at least remove any accumulated water. In Chicago, you will have at least another month of above-freezing weather, then another two before you splash in spring. I suggest drilling a series of 1/4 inch holes along the lower side of the rudder to allow it to drain fully for the next few months. You can fill these with fairing compound, or even 3M 4200 considering the small size, prior to bottom painting in the spring. As @Suijin notes, this is not a permanent fix, but it's quick and will hopefully prevent freeze damage.

[rognvald]

Is a gamble worth a $2-4K rudder? Pull the rudder. Address it in Spring. Good luck and safe sailing.

[GordMay]

Originally Posted by BlueChicago

... Also, to possibly drill a few holes to let some of the moisture drain ...
BC

This is standard procedure for a wet rudder.

[John_Trusty]

@BlueChicago - you might want to check out this CF thread on this topic from last month ... [http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...er-192902.html

Found through the helpful Google search.

[hellosailor]

It doesn't really matter. Water inside could freeze and split the rudder, but water inside an old rudder means a rusting armature and a total rudder failure is going to happen, the only question is exactly when. Even if there are no hairline cracks (some you can't even see unless the rudder is dry and you run fingernails along it, or a damp rag and oblique light) the water eventually gets sucked in where the fiberglass cannot adhere to the stainless rudder post for 35 years.

So the real answer is, drill a 1/4" test hole low down. Presumably "puss" will run out, and that confirms that you need to drop the rudder and have it opened up, possible rewelded, and rebuilt. AFAIK you'll have to send it up to Canada or Maine for that, a long slow and expensive process. (And no, I wouldn't let Foss Foam in CA or FL touch a rudder, but that's just personal.)

This is a good time to get started. Your rudder can continue working just fine, soaking wet, for another ten years. Or...fail in the middle of Lake Michigan while there are squall warnings and you've got no place to go. Personal choice.

[Elie]

Maybe you should also address the reason for the water ingress in the core. In général, the fiberglass rudder is attached to its stainless steel shaft using polyester resin, and that is bad, mainly because the link is weak and the sideway effort concentration on the shaft tend to split the link between the stailess shaft and the rudder. Water gets in and winter freezing does the rest.
have fixed my previous boat rudder by redoeing the shaft attachment using epoxy resin and carbon fiber. I dryied the core by drilling zillions of holes and let it rest in my home, very close to my central heating system .
In my present boat the same problem occured and I choose to have a new rudder made, using the original shaft(in good shape!) and a rudder skin made of stainless steel(316L) . Problem solved and never a drop of water ever entered my metal rudder. But I believe that a skin of mild steel would have done a very good job for much less money and labor since mild steel is easy to form, and anti rust treatment would have done a good job. That is what I would recommand. By the way, the new rudder cost me just a bit more then a fiberglass one and I have no more worries in winter. My boat winters in upstate New York and the winters are as bad as anywhere else in American north!.

[Navicula]

I like the stainless rudder idea.....is there foam inside??..
if so how did the weld it?? and
if its hollow would there not be any condensation build up inside??

I like the idea

[Mike OReilly]

Hmmm, you’re in Chicago. Average lows around -7C. You don’t get many hard freezes way down there, so I’d probably not fret too much. I would drill a couple of holes and see what comes out. If a lot, then drill more. Drain it. No biggy.

My rudder was quite saturated, probably for years, before I drained and repaired it. And I did live in an area that got serious freezing (north of Lake Superior). Never had a a problem.

I bet most rudders in the yard in Thunder Bay had some amount of water intrusion and winter freezing. I can say that I saw very few that ever cracked; like two or three over the 10 years I was there. It certainly can happen, but I think like many things, the risk and fear gets magnified on forums like this.

Drill it, drain it. Find the source of the water if you can, and stop it. But unless your boat is very lightly built, or is already stressed in some way, I wouldn’t stress about freeze-cracking in Chicago.

[JPA Cate]

Blue Chicago,

Some boats are really prone to rudder failure; others, less so. Factor that into the decision.

Fwiw, with a new to you boat, an argument could be made to fix it prior to re-launch, so that you feel confident with sailing her come spring, and the boat's as good as it can be. One possible complication, once water's gone in there, the s/s parts may be vulnerable to oxygen deprivation corrosion, or crevice corrosion in the welds.

Good luck with it.

Ann

[Mike OReilly]

Originally Posted by JPA Cate

...One possible complication, once water's gone in there, the s/s parts may be vulnerable to oxygen deprivation corrosion, or crevice corrosion in the welds.

THIS would be my bigger concern. Freeze/thaw, not so much. But this kind of corrosion damage can be serious for some rudder designs.

[appick]

I'd agree that the corrosion is the real problem, unless the rudder skin is so fractured and cracked that it falls off. If you look around the yard your in I'm going to guess that of boats older that 5-8 years that have been in the water this season that a little more than half will show signs of having a saturated core. I know around my yard on the other side of the lake from you that certainly holds true.

It all comes down to how much risk you're willing to accept, and how much other owners are either willing to accept or ignorant of.

It's not a question of if corrosion is in there, if there is moisture in there then chemistry dictates that the stainless will have a certain amount of crevice corrosion. Drilling holes and draining rudders helps for those that have so much water that freezing risks cracking the fiberglass skin. However it doesn't really dry them, it will make the drier, or should I say less wet. However the same problem of crevice corrosion will still be happening. I look at it like this, "Any wet rudder or rudder with high moisture readings is suspect". How soon you need to deal with it I go by the signs you're seeing.

If you just got the boat I'd say leave the rudder this year. Do the other work you have planned, put the rudder on the list for next year or the year after depending on how it looks. If you talk to other owners you will find some that agree with you, others won't have any idea why you're doing the work or that water could get into the rudder.

Good luck and happy sailing

[Elie]

Originally Posted by Navicula

I like the stainless rudder idea.....is there foam inside??..
if so how did the weld it?? and
if its hollow would there not be any condensation build up inside??

I like the idea

Nothing inside. So welding was not a problem. It is in fact now a tank ready to be filled with diesel oil if needed(never done it yet, but it has all the harware required). It is much lighter than the original, it has a slight net positive buyancy, a good thing in my opinion. But as I wrote before, to be redone I would choose to have the skin made of mild steel, well protected against rust. On my stailess rudder, I have 2 replaceable round anodes, that are still like new after many years of sailing in fresh and salt waters. By the way, I opted for a better Naca profile for the rudder than the original one: a bit shorter(less risk in case of grounding) and a better profile(more lift and Less drag...) quite happy with my solution. The only problem was that a surveyor, unaware that the thing was steel wrote that it was wet... funny!

[BlueChicago]

Well, after much consideration, and after having a conversation with yard on my options and risk, I have decided to leave the rudder in place, outdoors, for the winter.

This will be my winter project for the 2018/2019 winter season.

Thanks to all for your input. It was helpful, and greatly appreciated!

-BC