JARCAT CC29 vs WHARRAM TIKI 30

[cat man do]

Originally Posted by David_Old_Jersey

Never built a boat - but I would have thought good plans would be worth there weight in gold by saving time and money later during the build, and if the price of that is a higher cost for plans then so be it.

Tiki plans are actually more expensive than anything discussed so far
I haven't seen them but seriously, I reckon you could almost build one without plans being so simplistic.
Makes one wonder why so expensive in comparison?

but mainly because a long history of DIY building, so most of the wrinkles should have been ironed out and support / knowledge from others.

Same for many designs
No shortage of simpson designs on the water, as a boatbuilder by trade, I found the drawings to be some of the easiest I have used to date.

Just have to suck up the shortcomings......but all boats have those.

And some have a lot more than others.
Open bridgedeck boats with average hullshapes held together with rope would be off of my list due to to many shortcomings.

Of course this is only my opinion

[freelife]

On the topic of to build or not to build, I realise that many people that look into building a boat of any description can be quite overwhelmed at how to go about it,which is only natural. The last thing I want to sound like is a smart-ass, that being said I have been in the formwork and construction industry for 27 years now and the things I get asked to create that just have to work are too much for most tradesmen to get their head around(honestly). So when it comes to plans and their cost it is very relevant to me, and thats not because I am a tight#@* it is because I only need the dimensions and not much else. A good example is two sets of drawings I have purchased the first was a 13ft skiff that I wanted to build with and for my kids as we live across the road from a river which leads to the bay. It had to be light enough for us to carry have a low powered 4 stroke and be stable. I also wanted to try stitch and glue with the west system,$60 dollars later instant download and a trip down the road for some ply and a boat takes shape in half a day. The dimensions on the plans were very accurate(all good) Then the next set of drawings for a tiki 30 (study plans) ordered on internet THREE AND A HALF WEEKS LATER!! arrive in the mail,big packet, then I open up what appeared to be a comic book for kids complete with pictures and vague diagrams (it was a little embarrassing to look at) next to no dimensions,but quite a few marketing clippings from the early 80,s. The punchline is that with postage the two items cost the same amount, but while waiting for the comic plan the other small boat was already built. I hope you can see my point,but some of the drawings I have looked at you would have to wonder, should the prospective builder even be in charge of a boat. In short I build and seek the advice of sailers. Cheers from OZ.

[David_Old_Jersey]

Originally Posted by cat man do

No shortage of simpson designs on the water, as a boatbuilder by trade, I found the drawings to be some of the easiest I have used to date.

I did qualify my last comment with the word "good" (plans). As a boatbuilder by trade you could probably deal with plans that were drawn on the back of a fag packet .....whilst others would need plans that were towards the Airfix model instructions end of things (like me ).

When you know WTF you are doing (for anything) the obvious is....obvious .....but for others having it written down is a useful head start.

In regard to the Wharram plans, I have never seen any (but that a mere detail for me expressing a view ). I am not surprised that the "Study Plans" are fairly basic and don't include nearly enough info to build the boat - otherwise no one would buy the full plans!

Having said that, sounds like they are at least "presentationally challenged" , which I guess given that they were probably written many decades ago is no great surprise - even if dissapointing .....my presumption is that the actual plans would be far better (in content if not in presentation!)..........but before parting with any cash would certainly be looking to pick the brains of others who have bought and built from them (same as for any other Designer / plans) as my understanding is that usefulness of plans (esp. to a DIY builder) does vary.

As an amateur builder I would certainly want a boat that was designed to be built without all the advantages of a boat yard / factory........and also ideally the plans (and boat!) to have been guinea pigged by others (as many as possible!).

[David_Old_Jersey]

Oooops!.........this thread has reminded me, I am meant to have built TWO boats by now .

One Nesting Dink - should have long since been finished. I've done the project plan, it's somewhere around......

And my Triamaran Canoe - that's, errrr.....still early days .


And after that comes the 21 foot Tiki (at some point in the next couple of years) - in Malaysia, maybe.....technically that is still on schedule

Life, as always, intervenes

[Cavalier MK2]

The wharram plans are alright. They do leave details off the study plans, I like the rope lashings, the idea has worked for thousands of years-think about that awhile......we've been using nails for a few hundred years and epoxy for a few decades. The difference between a builder and an novice is large however. For a pro a shetch on a board is enough. Like what the Volkswagen Idiot Book did for the beetle.the Wharrams have gotten more people on the water than any other designer.....and brought them back which is what really counts.

[cat man do]

Originally Posted by Cavalier MK2

Wharrams have gotten more people on the water than any other designer.....and brought them back which is what really counts.

If that was actually true we would be seeing more wharrams on the water than any other design.

Why is this not even close to being the case?

[freelife]

Consider that in a good year SEAWIND sold 25 1160,s from an american boat expo,making them the largest producer in oz at the time. In the mid 50's, based on his research into ancient Polynesian boat design, James Wharram built the first off-shore Catamaran in Britain and sailed it out into the Atlantic. While the world's yachting community were still dismissing such a design as a worthy sea-going vessel, James was landing his 23'6" 'Double Hulled Canoe' called TANGAROA in the West Indies.

There he built a second 40' Polynesian style Catamaran, RONGO, and sailed it up to New York and back to the UK accompanied by two German women -being the first to sail a catamaran West-to-East across the North Atlantic.

These amazing Trans-Atlantic crossings and the follow up book "Two Girls, Two Catamarans" has etched the name 'James Wharram' into the annals of yachting history.

The quality of the Wharram self-build catamarans is reflected in their popularity, excellence of craftmanship and 'sound sailing qualities'. More than 50 years on - with over 10,000 sets of plans sold and thousands turned into proud vessels - Wharram 'Cats' can be seen in harbours across the world, maintaining the highest reputation for surviving wind and wave. It we a long,long,long time before ANYONE tops that

[Cavalier MK2]

Originally Posted by cat man do

If that was actually true we would be seeing more wharrams on the water than any other design.

Why is this not even close to being the case?

I should have prefaced that with owner built multihulls I suppose.....still having a mindset can blind the eyes....

Cheers

[cat man do]

Originally Posted by freelife

More than 50 years on - with over 10,000 sets of plans sold and thousands turned into proud vessels - Wharram 'Cats' can be seen in harbours across the world

over 10,000 sets of plans but not boats built.

Bruce Roberts I believe can lay a similar claim.

[cat man do]

Originally Posted by Cavalier MK2

I should have prefaced that with owner built multihulls I suppose.....still having a mindset can blind the eyes....

Cheers

Perhaps
But I still say I could count the wharrams I have seen in twenty years on two hands.
I suppose they must exist somewhere in vast quantities, but seemingly not in Australia.

[Teleman]

Wharrams, properly built and sailed, are certainly safe. I find the original Classic designs appealing, both in terms of looks and strength. The newer boats less so.
However, apart from the limited accom and rig tension issues, they hobbyhorse a LOT, the main disadvantage of symmetrical double ended hulls with lots of rocker.
I've seen a Tiki 38 in a short chop with not much wind, people on board were hanging on and the masts were whipping to and fro alarmingly.

I would again recommend looking into Woods Gypsy, for my money the best design in this size/cost range for home builders.

[Boatguy30]

The wharram plans are real works of art. I have the plans for the Tiki 21 but building a Richard Woods design you'd be happy to see his business only CAD drawings. The whole overseas post thing is part of the Wharrram charm. It's my understanding from the used plans broker in the UK, most of the larger plans sets sold do lead to boats at least started. Hard to say. Certainly they have some great marketing Karma.

The CC 29 and the Tiki 30 couldn't be more different except they both have 2 hulls and one mast. You could sail a Tiki 30 anywhere in a small amount of comfort. You could sail the CC29 coastwise in heaps of comfort, but would need to seek calm anchorage every night of marina berth to maintain your caravan level of comfort.

[cat man do]

Originally Posted by Boatguy30

You could sail the CC29 coastwise in heaps of comfort, but would need to seek calm anchorage every night of marina berth to maintain your caravan level of comfort.

You just made that up didn't you?

From the website

My own CC29 "CORAL COASTER" was built in 1984. It has the original cutter rig which has proven to give sparkling performance without needing a large or strong crew. We covered 310 miles to Gladstone at an average of over 9 knots. Since then we have sailed to Lord Howe Island, 4 days out and 3 days back which is also good.

In 2000, three of the family sailed 700+ miles (open ocean) to New Caledonia for a holiday. We carried 160 litres of water, 75 litres of fuel, stores for a month plus spares and safety equipment. "Coral Coaster" was not down to the load water line! On the return passage we had the occasion to deploy a para-anchor for 36 hours as a storm passed. (Gusts 55knots plus breaking seas from two directions). We were quite comfortable. In another blow just before entering Moreton Bay we blew a batten & batten pocket right off the brand new mainsail.
Header

[Boatguy30]

Wow, that's a great bit of marketing.

My thoughts just based on how uncomfortable other small cats with low bridgedecks, Prouts, etc are in rough anchorage.

Can you honestly saw you think the CC 29 would be a good offshore boat?

[cat man do]

Originally Posted by Boatguy30

My thoughts just based on how uncomfortable other small cats with low bridgedecks, Prouts, etc are in rough anchorage.

So now we are talking anchorages, not even sailing ability?

Can you honestly saw you think the CC 29 would be a good offshore boat?

The question is:
Can you honestly say "it would need to seek calm anchorage every night of marina berth to maintain your caravan level of comfort."

As for its offshore abilities, personally I would far rather sail a well built cc29 to new cal than an open net boat held together with string.
Fatigue plays a big factor as to a successful passage and being continually wet and uncomfortable would be a major downfall IMHO.
Personally, I would rather not sail either.