Propane vs Alcohol Stove

[masonc]

The number one cause of accidents on boats is alcohol consumption, so before everyone gets overly paranoid about carrying and using propane, worry about whether you or your friends are drinking and boating. That's what's likely to kill you. My sister in law was with the Florida Fish And Game agency, it was her job to go to accidents and explain what happened in accidents. It was mostly alcohol related.

Proper storage and care of propane cylinders, sensible practices and common sense will keep you safe.

[Lepke]

Here's a new one. After a bbq event, couple was transporting their gas bbq in their car. Lady lit a cigarette. Blew out the windshield and did all the other damage. Car is a nice enclosed space, just like a boat.

[boatpoker]

Originally Posted by Lepke

Here's a new one. After a bbq event, couple was transporting their gas bbq in their car. Lady lit a cigarette. Blew out the windshield and did all the other damage. Car is a nice enclosed space, just like a boat.

Stoopid is incurable.

[boatpoker]

Not sure if I posted this before

From BoatUS ...............
Stoves. The incidence of fires due to stoves has decreased with the gradual replacement of alcohol stoves with propane stoves and electric ranges. Two percent of fires were caused by stoves, more than half resulting from problems with lighting alcohol stoves. Given how few alcohol stoves there are on boats these days, they are significantly more dangerous than those that use other fuel sources. If you still have an alcohol stove on board, you may want to consider upgrading. Most people agree that they don't heat very well, anyway.

Link to entire article

[NevisDog]

Originally Posted by boatpoker

... If you still have an alcohol stove on board, you may want to consider upgrading. Most people agree that they don't heat very well, anyway...

I believe both these statements were true once (pressurised alcohol was dodgy) but:
1. First thing we did when we bought this boat with non-compliant propane was switch to an Origo 6000 non-pressurised alcohol. It is hard to imagine anything safer on board. The burners must be removed from the stove for filling and we fill in the cockpit so any slight alcohol spills go straight into the sea, any fumes are blown away - safe and harmless. No fuel spills in the galley, ever; no explosion risk (except we can't fix stupid, as mentioned); no gas sniffers that can fail, no solenoids, shut-offs, no inspection fees or compliance regs. You can even invert the fuel container and nothing leaks out. Virtually 100% safe.
2. The heat output from a modern stove like the Origo is nothing like the old non-pressurised burners, as the modern ones operate on a venturi effect. Several have already mentioned the tiny time difference in boiling a pot of water - insignificant IMO.

[Mike OReilly]

Originally Posted by boatpoker

Not sure if I posted this before

From BoatUS ...............
Stoves. The incidence of fires due to stoves has decreased with the gradual replacement of alcohol stoves with propane stoves and electric ranges. Two percent of fires were caused by stoves, more than half resulting from problems with lighting alcohol stoves. Given how few alcohol stoves there are on boats these days, they are significantly more dangerous than those that use other fuel sources. If you still have an alcohol stove on board, you may want to consider upgrading. Most people agree that they don't heat very well, anyway.

Link to entire article

Thanks BP, that’s the kind of info we need. If this is broadly applicable, then it would suggest alcohol is far more dangerous than propane. I’d love to see this broken out by pressure vs non-pressure. And what is the proportion of propane vs other sources? I’d assume propane vastly dominates, but the numbers would be good.

The piece confirms that stoves are a statistically tiny problem when it comes to boating incidents. It’s not something to be taken lightly, but all these stories of people and boats getting blown up simply don’t present a balanced picture.

[Blue Crab]

Originally Posted by puffcard

We love our Origo, it's works flawlessly and so simple. Much cheaper, we use about a gallon a month and pay about $12/gal. Safe and easy to store. I don't see much if any difference in cooking times.

Ditto. 5 years now
No pressure.

[Cadence]

Originally Posted by masonc

The number one cause of accidents on boats is alcohol consumption, so before everyone gets overly paranoid about carrying and using propane, worry about whether you or your friends are drinking and boating. That's what's likely to kill you. My sister in law was with the Florida Fish And Game agency, it was her job to go to accidents and explain what happened in accidents. It was mostly alcohol related.

Proper storage and care of propane cylinders, sensible practices and common sense will keep you safe.

I'll bet her findings were, younger people and high speed boats, in the majority? Or gasoline leaks in an engine compartment?

[NevisDog]

Originally Posted by Blue Crab

Ditto. 5 years now
No pressure.

It seems to me we now have three distinct types to consider: outdated alcohol ("you should think about upgrading"), propane (a ticking bomb requiring multiple safety devices that must all work to keep you safe), then the Origo.

Five months ago I did an intensive search of all current manufacturers when we decided to replace our worn-out stove (with its collection of propane connectors and bottles for most countries); we found only Origo in the category of modern, inherently safe stoves, so I presume very little data around on this modern marvel. We had to import ours from some fishing boat supplier in NW USA, so they are almost unheard of here.

It's like switching to a diesel inboard - who would install petrol/gasoline today?

[SecondBase]

Originally Posted by NevisDog

It seems to me we now have three distinct types to consider: outdated alcohol ("you should think about upgrading"), propane (a ticking bomb requiring multiple safety devices that must all work to keep you safe), then the Origo.



It's like switching to a diesel inboard - who would install petrol/gasoline today?

Concur - BoatUS usually nails it in their findings but this looks like they didn't distinguish for the 2nd generation alcohol stoves. The data set they worked from was probably not including the question "which generation alcohol stove was that".

BoatUS literally underwrites safety for many of us so hopefully they will expand their opinion to explicitly name 2G alcohol stoves.

Lots of topics on this board have gray area but to me this one is cut and dried. I bet my life my Origo is safer AND more dependable than an ABYC propane install.

Maybe Practical Sailor or BoatUS can dig out the impartial facts? Another data source to come at the question is, for new Swedish boats under 50 feet what is the breakout between propane and 2G alcohol?

[Mike OReilly]

Originally Posted by SecondBase

Concur - BoatUS usually nails it in their findings but this looks like they didn't distinguish for the 2nd generation alcohol stoves. The data set they worked from was probably not including the question "which generation alcohol stove was that".

Or maybe they did. It's impossible to say either way given the facts stated in that piece. Actually, Beth's better half hangs out here. Perhaps Evans could ask her to update the piece...?

I really like the Origo stoves. If I had to replace my current propane system, and was only short-term cruising, I'd probably go for one. But the big negative of alcohol for me is the volume to btu ratio. Alcohol, being liquid, takes up a lot more space than compressed propane.

But to go back to the OPs question, if I had a pressure alcohol stove that was in good shape, and was not planning any multi-month cruises, I'd stick with it. Pressure alcohol can be perfectly safe if used correctly. I accept that it is more dangerous than propane (and likely non-pressure alcohol), but clearly there are a lot more dangerous things on a boat than any of the above.

[NevisDog]

Originally Posted by Mike OReilly

... Alcohol, being liquid, takes up a lot more space than compressed propane...

Ah, Mike, compressed propane is a liquid too ... but I get what you mean. We have a box on the pushpit that held two small gas bottles, but we have an entire cabin where we can store any amount of alcohol - just load up where it's cheap.

[Snowpetrel]

Originally Posted by NevisDog

Ah, Mike, compressed propane is a liquid too ... but I get what you mean. We have a box on the pushpit that held two small gas bottles, but we have an entire cabin where we can store any amount of alcohol - just load up where it's cheap.

Just got to find some cheap alcohol... I suspect over here in Aussie at least propane is going to work out cheaper fuel wise. Bunnings sell a 9kg swap and go bottle of gas for $21 or so and a 20 litre container of meths is about $63. I suspect the gas works out a lot cheaper in practise? My Origo 6000 sure seems to chew through the meths. And in theory meths has approx only 60% of the Energy per gram that LPG has. And yet costs 50% more. Anybody know a cheaper supplier in Aus?

[Blue Crab]

Alcohol is about $17/gal here in US hardware stores. With my two burner O 4000, I go months between refills, so it's no biggie but propane is doubtless far cheaper. And hotter. And more hassle to refill more often. And potentially more dangerous. And, and, and .... I'd keep a propane install done correctly but my PO had a jack-legged propane camp stove setup. It was the first thing I tossed out.

I also have a Trident F/G propane tank in the cockpit for the Magma. I fill it a couple of times a year and use it all 12 months. No issues with filling in my little town.

[El Pinguino]

Originally Posted by a64pilot

I have it in the back of my mind that some countries won't refill fiberglass tanks, but I'm not sure.
Would be nice to know how much propane you have though, currently I know full and empty, nothing in between

NZ won't test or fill f/glass tanks.

In NZ any furrin tank will need to be tested before it can be refilled

Once tested its good for 10 years.

You can buy alloy tanks there but I was told they invariably fail the 10 year test due to corrosion at the valve/tank interface.

The good news... US, NZ, Oz, ( and Chile ) all use the same connection so even if you need to buy a new tank on arrival in NZ you can connect it up without modification.

Re 'full and empty' ... why is it you always run out of propane when you are using the stove*... is this the same as always finding your glasses in the last place you look ?

* invariably at night when its raining