Would mandatory licensing change things?

[parkstone bay]

Originally Posted by Beppe123

I totally agree. In Europe you cannot operate a boat if you do not have a license and it makes a lot of sense.

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The licence you need for operating on inland waters in the EU is called CEVNI (which stands for the French for something like "Inland Waterways Cert"). You can do it on line, and it really is a piece of p*ff . It consists of a string of multiple choice questions: eg. letter P in white on blue. Choice of: "pilot berth only/No mooring/Carpark area/Mooring Area." Go on, have a guess!

You don't need a license to operate a leisure craft otherwise (unless commercial or coded).

[Beau.Vrolyk]

Originally Posted by dkenny64

instead of Gov't regulations what about working through insurance companies to provide good discounts to boaters with licenses.. this would leave the gov't red tape out -dkenny64

Sadly, it does nothing to make it easy on the cops or to solve the liability problem. In my opinion, the major economic point is the liability, not the payment of insurance premiums.

[paul2884]

Originally Posted by Beppe123

I totally agree. In Europe you cannot operate a boat if you do not have a license and it makes a lot of sense.

Hey we are still in Europe here in England!
There is no requirement for any licence or qualifications in the UK. To sail in most harbours and use most slipways you need insurance and the insurance companies will very often require you to demonstrate a level of experience so that helps a bit..

I my experience those people who don’t get voluntary training are the same ones who don’t know they need a VHF licence and carry on anyway, they probably wouldn’t know they needed a licence to operate a boat and would just carry on anyway. The Police and governments have enough to do without having to go around checking licence of all the people out playing on the water, imaging the problems with “sorry my licence in in my other swimming trunks”.
It would all get very expensive with the real problem people would still ignoring the requirements and still causing just as much trouble.
We still get un-insured drivers on the road and just look at all the checks there are for that.

[dandawes]

Mandatory licensing helps, even if only a written test. As you well know, even with long standing automobile licensing in the US, it doesn't prevent idiots from driving on the road, accidents and road deaths.

But could you imagine what it would be like, if there were no licensing at all? We would have 10 year olds driving like back in the days at the turn of the century before automobile licensing. I know some legally blind people who would like to drive, if it were legal.

[GordMay]

Greetings and welcome aboard the CF, Beppe.

[SAColes]

From a UK perspective the RYA's campaign to have "Education NOT Legislation" has been effective at keeping government out of making rules for Leisure navigation. In perhaps generally more challenging navigational conditions than is encountered in USA on average this has been effective in encouraging many people to volounteer to learn the basics of seamanship/IRPCS etc rather than force them by legislation to do so. I am glad to hear that some other countries have taken the lead from the UK. Perhaps others would do well to follow?

[guyrj33]

Licensing won't improve safety, only real world experience will.
With this in mind in the USA Tire Rack and BMWCCA co-sponsor Street Survival a real world driver training experience for young auto drivers. It's a chance to practice emergency maneuvers before an emergency and while accompanied by an instructor.
Do you want your first panic stop experience to be in a parking lot or on the freeway?

Something similar for boaters would be good, but harder to set up. Don't let the government get involved the cost benefit ratio will be too high, and the fees will be perpetual.

[cappy208]

Originally Posted by dkenny64

instead of Gov't regulations what about working through insurance companies to provide good discounts to boaters with licenses.. this would leave the gov't red tape out -dkenny64

That is the best answer yet. But... it would seem counterintuitive to expect an insurance company to take less money in their extortion. More like add a ‘unlicensed fee’ to those who don’t take the time or put in the effort to gain some rudimentary knowledge.

I have the money to buy it. I surely don’t need any license to run it..... common thought.

[Greektherapy]

I have been on many boats with highly qualified people with multiple certificates and for safety reasons I would never get on a boat with some of them ever again.
I have also been on boats with people with vast experience but with no qualification, I would choose the latter every time.
I have been on courses where the trainers should not (in my opinion) be in charge of a boat and yet they are issuing the certificates..
In many cases (not always) people with certificates can be over confident in their abilities simply because someone has given them a qualification, often they can be encouraged to do things they have little experience of.
This is not just about boating .. in many walks of society an over emphasis is put on training and certification.
I am starting a walking on the pavement safely course because I think I am better than most at this particular skill. I will issue certificates and in a few years time I will be the recognised authority.
WOPSA .. eventually everyone is going to need a WOPSA certificate to be able to venture outside safely.
Anyone want to attend the course .. small administrative fee applicable.

[Greektherapy]

Having said that .. I don’t think I would get in a plane unless the pilot was qualified ..

[gwyn]

Originally Posted by dkenny64

instead of Gov't regulations what about working through insurance companies to provide good discounts to boaters with licenses.. this would leave the gov't red tape out -dkenny64

Agree with that but also any penalties/fines/etc should be doubled/tripled/quadrupled/etc for those who choose to be ignorant of the law. After all, this is done with road works (penalties doubled when workers present), in the US.

[evm1024]

Originally Posted by Greektherapy

SNIP

I am starting a walking on the pavement safely course because I think I am better than most at this particular skill. I will issue certificates and in a few years time I will be the recognised authority.
WOPSA .. eventually everyone is going to need a WOPSA certificate to be able to venture outside safely.
Anyone want to attend the course .. small administrative fee applicable.

As long as there are severe fines for texting while walking you got my endorsement.

[hellosailor]

Mike, I think your driving statistics pretty much confirm that driving a left hand drive vehicle, or a vehicle and bumper and door crash protection, or driving within 20 miles of a 7-11, or 100 yards from overhead power and utility lines, all cause high fatality rates.

I'm in favor or requiring "public houses" to have sleeping rooms on the premises. And automobile parking lots located no closer than 1/2 mile. (Horses can be tethered right up front.) We never had a drunk driving problem back when that was the norm, no sir.

Similarly, you'll find that a boater wearing a kilt NEVER throws a wake. Mandatory attire, counts more than licensing. It must be so, we've all seen the waker throwers always wear pants.

[Greektherapy]

Fines, of course loads of fines.
Walking without due care and attention.
* walking at the wrong speed in front of someone who has somewhere to get to.
Walking in the middle of the pavement.
* walking under the influence of alcohol(I’m not sure of the limit yet)
* walking without a certificate.
* walking without training.
I am considering mandatory DNA testing / registering for all walking licence applications.
There will be a need for compulsory walking registration numbers to be worn by all walkers.
Cameras will monitor walkers at all times.
No one should worry as long as you are not breaking my walking rules and you are correctly trained and certified..
* I will give special licences and high viz vests to all that report rule breakers..
I might start a special walking enforcement agency

[Ike]

I read through most of this thread until it deteriorated into a dog fight over vehicle traffic laws.

My only substantive comment is, you are really really late to the party. As of right now only 4 states and 2 US territories DO NOt have some form of mandatory boater education.
Those are Alaska, Arizona, South Dakota, and Wyoming, Guam and the Northern Marianas. If you live in any of the other states or territories you have some form of mandatory boater education you are required by state law to take. Only 6 states have what anyone could call a "license" At least that is what National Association of State Boating Law Administrators call it. NASBLA is made up of the top boating law officials in each state and territories.

So it's already here. I took the Washington exam without studying and missed 2 out of 200 questions, Both dealing with PWC rules. I have been boating since I was a kid, I am 74, am a retired Coast Guard Officer and was trained both in ship and boat handling, Nav rules and so on and so on. Makes no difference. Get the card, stick in your wallet and be done with it.

This argument has been going on for as long as I can remember. I was first directly involved in it in 1976 when I was assigned to coordinate the investigation of boating accidents in what used to be the 3rd CG District, six states. All the same arguments here, for and against were being made, ad infinitum. Time rolls on.

What has actually happened while you and I have been out happily sailing or motoring is that the Coast Guard, the states, and whole lot of boating organizations like the power squadron, the CG auxiliary, BOATUS, and others got together and came up with a approved (by NASBLA) boating course that states could adopt that covers the basics. That is all it covers. I first took the test back in the 90's when it was being developed. I still have the certificate. And that is the point. People getting into boating, no matter the type of boat need a basic knowledge of the Nav rules, what aids to navigation mean, and other basic subjects. That's all the tests are meant to cover. This in no way prepares you for a Coast Guard License. (I used to administer the six pack license exam and it is quite comprehensive). Most states allow you to take the test online. Yes you could cheat and have someone take it for you, but how would that benefit you?

As far as the insurance companies go, their attitude during this whole thing (yes they were involved) was, ho hum. The amount of money they pay out in claims on boating accidents is miniscule compared to autos, and even hurricane damage. Some actually do give a discount, if you have taken a sit down boating course such as those given by the CG Auxiliary or the Power Squadron. But I don't know of any who give a discount for passing a state boater exam.

There are a lot of side issues as well. If a nation wide requirement for a boating license were enacted (Congress would have to act and as you all know they can't agree on how to do anything) who then would administer it. I can tell you from direct experience, the Coast Guard would fight that tooth and nail. It would cost a fortune and be a horrible bureaurocratic nightmare. The states would call it an unfunded mandate and want huge sums of money to do it.

as far as the argument about, what is the benefit? It's hard to quantify. The boating safety program in the US has a three prong approach. Education, Engineering and Enforcement. Education is what this thread is about. Engineering is making boats safer which is why there are regulations for boat manufacturers, and enforcement, which is now primarily up to the states and funded by the National Boating Safety Trust Fund which is funded by taxes you pay on fuel, and boating and fishing equipment. The fund is split between boating and fishing at the state level and used to fund enforcement and education, and on the other side build boat ramps and other boating facilities.

Anyway. When I got into this in the 70's there were about 1300 people being killed every year on boats. The only means of transportation higher was automobiles. Since then its down to between 600 and 700 per year and there are 3 to 4 times as many boats and people on the water as there were in the 70's. Over 80 million people according to the last survey. And that folks is part of the problem. Recreational boating is a big industry in this country and they want to keep growing, keep selling more boats and boating gear, and putting more people on the water. (I won't go out on the lake on weekends any more. Too many people!) So something has to be done, and is but it;s a slow process. But I predict that some day you will see licensing by the states. Not tomorrow or even next year but maybe ten years?