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08-07-2019, 12:01
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#1
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Registered User
Join Date: Jul 2017
Boat: Sabre 34
Posts: 140
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Uncontrollable pointing into the wind in a minor blow
I was sailing my friends Catalina 315 last weekend near Charleston. Its is a very nice, well maintained boat with original sails - 150 (guessing) genoa, and a in-mast main. Weather was great and a few miles offshore wind was blowing around 10 knots. Boat felt very balanced and helm feel was perfect. I had full genoa and full main up. Coming back the wind picked up a bit to roughly 12 knots. No biggie, right.
This is when things got strange. Every time it will puff to 15 knots the boat, instead of getting more heal, would stand up and just turn into the wind. You couldn't even fight it with the steering wheel inputs. It will just point into the wind. Every-time I would completely loose control for a few seconds.
I have owned a Catalina 27 and my current boat is Sabre 34. Under similar conditions my boats would heal more, and you will have to put a little force into the steering. What was going on with this 315 to cause a complete loss of control (quickly regained once boat is pointing into the wind) with such moderate wind speeds? I am completely puzzled.
P.S. This was on a beam reach.
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08-07-2019, 12:27
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#2
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Registered User
Join Date: Jul 2017
Boat: Sabre 34
Posts: 140
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Re: Uncontrollable pointing into the wind in a minor blow
I must add that everything was setup to what I would do on my boats. Position of the blocks, sail shapes were decent, nothing was odd about the 4 year old Catalina. But it will just point into the wind like no tomorrow.
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08-07-2019, 12:51
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#3
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Registered User
Join Date: Aug 2018
Posts: 500
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Re: Uncontrollable pointing into the wind in a minor blow
Mast raked too far aft? That would tend to shoot the bow up.
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08-07-2019, 13:07
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#4
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Registered User
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Chesapeake Bay
Boat: Hunnter Legend 37.5
Posts: 1,012
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Re: Uncontrollable pointing into the wind in a minor blow
I have sailed a similar Catalina, but in the 40 foot range, and a 42 Jeneau with similar characteristics. In each case the main drew the boat into the wind. So....I flattened out the main with extra outhaul tension, and dropped the traveler. I suspect due to the loose footed nature of the sail, there was initially too much camber which caused the "pull" to leward and created the rounding up. Also, I suspect that the rudder, at least on Jeneau was slightly undersized. Added to that the foresail was a jib, not a full Genoa, so the usual balance of power wasn't there.
These were other's boats with in mast. I have a traditional main on my boat, so I was unfamiliar with the in mast sail characteristics at first. Once made these adjustments, everything went much better.
Ben
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08-07-2019, 13:15
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#5
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Registered User
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Australia
Boat: Catalina 470
Posts: 4,578
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Re: Uncontrollable pointing into the wind in a minor blow
IMHO it's the big Genoa, I don't like them . I've got rid of mine and have a 100% jib which has improved the behavior of the boat massively with better performance in some areas and limited losses in others.
To compensate the loss of sail area for light winds Ive added a code zero on a furler.
A Genoa is a sail trying to be everything. It's a poor light wind sail due to weight and it's a poor sail going to weather due to size and when furled it's in efficient.
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08-07-2019, 13:19
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#6
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Registered User
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Australia
Boat: Catalina 470
Posts: 4,578
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Re: Uncontrollable pointing into the wind in a minor blow
One other thing, I know the natural response is "it's the main, weather helm" ,I think you will find it's not. It's more the big Genoa dragging the boat over resulting in the boat rounding up as its heeling. I don't fully understand the reasons, but I've experienced it and seen it on other boats.
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08-07-2019, 13:46
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#7
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Registered User
Join Date: Jul 2017
Boat: Sabre 34
Posts: 140
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Re: Uncontrollable pointing into the wind in a minor blow
I can't say for sure what size Genoa it was, but it was not a large one. In fact it was rather small compared to what I am usually used to. Barely any overlap.
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08-07-2019, 13:50
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#8
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Registered User
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Australia
Boat: Catalina 470
Posts: 4,578
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Re: Uncontrollable pointing into the wind in a minor blow
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alex_V
I can't say for sure what size Genoa it was, but it was not a large one. In fact it was rather small compared to what I am usually used to. Barely any overlap.
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If its barely overlapping its definitely not a 150, this changes everything, ignore what I said and deal with the main.
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08-07-2019, 13:51
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#9
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Registered User
Join Date: Jul 2017
Boat: Sabre 34
Posts: 140
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Re: Uncontrollable pointing into the wind in a minor blow
Quote:
Originally Posted by B23iL23
Mast raked too far aft? That would tend to shoot the bow up.
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That is above my tuning knowledge. I do not recall the mast being easily adjustable. It was never tuned as far as I know. Interesting to experiment with next time.
Quote:
Originally Posted by bensolomon
I have sailed a similar Catalina, but in the 40 foot range, and a 42 Jeneau with similar characteristics. In each case the main drew the boat into the wind. So....I flattened out the main with extra outhaul tension, and dropped the traveler. I suspect due to the loose footed nature of the sail, there was initially too much camber which caused the "pull" to leward and created the rounding up. Also, I suspect that the rudder, at least on Jeneau was slightly undersized. Added to that the foresail was a jib, not a full Genoa, so the usual balance of power wasn't there.
These were other's boats with in mast. I have a traditional main on my boat, so I was unfamiliar with the in mast sail characteristics at first. Once made these adjustments, everything went much better.
Ben
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I am not very familiar with in-mast systems either. I can see trying flatter setup with the main.
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08-07-2019, 14:10
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#10
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Registered User
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 2,492
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Re: Uncontrollable pointing into the wind in a minor blow
__________________
Bristol 31.1, SF Bay.
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08-07-2019, 15:04
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#11
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Moderator
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Channel Islands, CA
Boat: 1962 Columbia 29 MK 1 #37
Posts: 14,262
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Re: Uncontrollable pointing into the wind in a minor blow
sheez, these windward helm puzzles! Mast rake is a possibility. So the sails are 4 years old? How much were you heeling already when the 15 knot puff occurred? In other words, could it be a stalling rudder? The genoa may just be giving more drag than drive like Dale said and contributing to heel more than driving thus adding to chance of rudder stalling. BUT, you said beam reach and you said no added heel, which is odd.... Could it have been sheeted in too tight, (or the genoa not enough?) Did it happen on both tacks?
BTW is that a shot of when it was happening? That's 12-15 kts?
...or there's always my other theory that the quadrant may have slipped on the rudder stock
__________________
DL
Pythagoras
1962 Columbia 29 MKI #37
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08-07-2019, 17:31
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#12
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Moderator
Join Date: May 2008
Location: cruising SW Pacific
Boat: Jon Sayer 1-off 46 ft fract rig sloop strip plank in W Red Cedar
Posts: 21,134
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Re: Uncontrollable pointing into the wind in a minor blow
I'm having a hard time imagining this event. Are you sure that when a puff arrived the boat "stood up" first and then rounded up? This seems kinda hard to believe... how can a puff cause the boat to LOOSE heel angle? If it rounded up first and then stood up, that's understandable and the normal sequence for excessive weather helm.
Questions: how was the main trimmed whilst on a beam reach? Did you try easing the traveller down during a gust? Is the bottom of the boat. and especially the rudder fouled?
The Catalinas are hardly untested designs and are quite conservative in general, so it's hard to believe that it is a design flaw, present in this individual boat. Thus the behavior must be due to some factor such as trim, rudder stalling due to fouling, possibly mast rake (unlikely IMO), blown out mainsail.... who knows!
Give us some more info and we'll keep trying!
Jim
__________________
Jim and Ann s/v Insatiable II, lying Port Cygnet Tasmania once again.
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08-07-2019, 17:40
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#13
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Senior Cruiser
Join Date: Jan 2016
Boat: Bathtub
Posts: 889
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Re: Uncontrollable pointing into the wind in a minor blow
Ease traveller, ease main, reef large genny to no more than 100%, reef main...
Not exactly brain surgery.
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08-07-2019, 20:26
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#14
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Moderator
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Channel Islands, CA
Boat: 1962 Columbia 29 MK 1 #37
Posts: 14,262
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Re: Uncontrollable pointing into the wind in a minor blow
Quote:
Originally Posted by BlackHeron
Not exactly brain surgery.
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I dunno, some of these puzzles seem pretty puzzling...
is there a brain surgeon in the house?!
__________________
DL
Pythagoras
1962 Columbia 29 MKI #37
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09-07-2019, 05:39
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#15
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Registered User
Join Date: Jul 2017
Boat: Sabre 34
Posts: 140
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Re: Uncontrollable pointing into the wind in a minor blow
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Cate
I'm having a hard time imagining this event. Are you sure that when a puff arrived the boat "stood up" first and then rounded up? This seems kinda hard to believe... how can a puff cause the boat to LOOSE heel angle? If it rounded up first and then stood up, that's understandable and the normal sequence for excessive weather helm.
Questions: how was the main trimmed whilst on a beam reach? Did you try easing the traveller down during a gust? Is the bottom of the boat. and especially the rudder fouled?
The Catalinas are hardly untested designs and are quite conservative in general, so it's hard to believe that it is a design flaw, present in this individual boat. Thus the behavior must be due to some factor such as trim, rudder stalling due to fouling, possibly mast rake (unlikely IMO), blown out mainsail.... who knows!
Give us some more info and we'll keep trying!
Jim
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Jim, you are probably right - boat probably rounded up as it stood up. Happened very quickly to really have time to ease travelers or make trim adjustments.
I doubt the bottom or rudder is fouled, the boat gets a cleaning by a diver every few months. I trimmed the sails as best as I can relate my past experience with regular sails, which I tried to translate to a furler main setup. I probably didn't have the outhaul very tight.
I just don't get that a 15knot puff will cause that drastic of a behavior, even if I didn't have the ideal trim.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BlackHeron
Ease traveller, ease main, reef large genny to no more than 100%, reef main...
Not exactly brain surgery.
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In a 15 knot gust? Nope.
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