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Old 21-03-2013, 19:18   #16
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Re: Storm Tactics for Double-Enders?

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Originally Posted by barnakiel View Post
IMHO only as much as there is any risk of your boat accelerating down the slope and getting out of hand. This may happen when waves are very steep and your boat is like a Valiant or like our tub (double-ender, but not heavy displacement). It would take a very, very bad day to send a proper Colin Archer hull flying.
I think what you are saying is that a drogue is less likely to be needed with a full-keel, slack-bilged boat Barn. That is my thought as well, but I've never had to deal with conditions anywhere near bad enough to test.

Seems to me full keel, slack-bilged boat will not surf nearly as easily as a firm-bilged, fin keeler. If this is so then my Rafiki will encounter fewer circumstances where a drogue is of value. I can see a sea anchor being a second stage response once heave-toing becomes untenable.
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Old 21-03-2013, 19:21   #17
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Re: Storm Tactics for Double-Enders?

but you make some good points Barnakiel as why not to run before the storm as seas heighten. The tonnage of water ( salt being even heavier ) coming down on your back in the form of a wave was always impressionable as a youth in the surf of LBI in good weather. I can only imagine the pressure on the back of an older, slightly aging sailor from waves with storm ferocity behind them.
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Old 21-03-2013, 19:29   #18
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Re: Storm Tactics for Double-Enders?

Even a straw bale will accelerate down a large wave. One of the issues with a heavy displacement boat is that it is slower to accelerate down waves and can be overtaken by larger seas where a lighter displacement more modern design will stay ahead of the wave. These heavy boats do go faster down waves and when pushed one way or the other are much harder to make quick steering corrections. Its always safer on these types of boats to hove to or if the seas are not too high and breaking to slow down.
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Old 21-03-2013, 19:34   #19
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Re: Storm Tactics for Double-Enders?

Has everybody read the books by the Smeetons on Tzu Hang describing pitchpoling in the Southern Ocean? Even traditional, heavy double enders can get going too fast for their own good if the waves get big enough.
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Old 22-03-2013, 06:39   #20
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Re: Storm Tactics for Double-Enders?

FWIW: All sailboats are double enders under water.Running downwind in steep seas in a modern fat assed stern might cause me concern regarding a broach , but I suppose any prudent skipper would consider reducing sail etc. if not racing or running from something even more scary.
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Old 22-03-2013, 07:01   #21
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Re: Storm Tactics for Double-Enders?

I'm not sure I would want to use a drag device off the stern in a lot of these modern boats with cockpits designed to make it easy to get aboard at the boat show. In heavy conditions that cockpit would be like a half-tide rock.
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Old 22-03-2013, 07:22   #22
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Re: Storm Tactics for Double-Enders?

You have to keep in mind that 99% of these boats don't leave protected waters, sure make great party boats though.
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Old 22-03-2013, 07:50   #23
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Re: Storm Tactics for Double-Enders?

I did not notice any pitching, but again our hull is not a proper CA. We are rather in 'a direct descendant'. I think any pitching, if exists, may have to do with how the ballast is distributed and how fine the ends are (in a CA they are not fine at all). In our boat, the ballast slab is half the length of the WL - zero pitching, basically.

CA did not design the double end into his boats. The double ended hull was simply what was sailed in that area at that time and so he picked up the existing design and built his boats accordingly. It was the double ended boat that made CA, not the other way round.

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Old 22-03-2013, 07:56   #24
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Re: Storm Tactics for Double-Enders?

I think the double end design goes back to the woodie era, it was simply a lot easier to join the planks. There is no benefit that I am aware of for double enders but there are draw backs. Back in the day (Westsail 32) it was believed that it was the best shape for offshore boats and later Bob Perry capitalized on the idea with the Valliant 40 and many others but that was then and this is now. I don't think anyone is building double enders anymore.
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Old 22-03-2013, 08:34   #25
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Re: Storm Tactics for Double-Enders?

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I think the double end design goes back to the woodie era, it was simply a lot easier to join the planks. There is no benefit that I am aware of for double enders but there are draw backs. Back in the day (Westsail 32) it was believed that it was the best shape for offshore boats and later Bob Perry capitalized on the idea with the Valliant 40 and many others but that was then and this is now. I don't think anyone is building double enders anymore.
Hardly! It's a hell of a lot easier to build a boat with a transom stearn than a double ender or canoe stearn!
The double ender is a little cheaper to build because there is less material involved but not easier to build.
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Old 22-03-2013, 08:42   #26
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Re: Storm Tactics for Double-Enders?

Well maybe it was stronger as wood is held together with mechanical fastners but whatever the reason (and you may know) this type of design has been with us for thousands of years. Maybe you don't mind sharing your knowledge, I love learning new things.
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Old 22-03-2013, 08:49   #27
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Hardly! It's a hell of a lot easier to build a boat with a transom stearn than a double ender or canoe stearn!
The double ender is a little cheaper to build because there is less material involved but not easier to build.
I have found that canoe stern allows me to run in larger waves a little easier then a regular transom. The wave has somewhat less push on the boat with the canoe stern but the difference is not enough to make a hell of a difference. The type of keel you have will make more of a difference in youre tactics. I would run until the waves began to show the possibility of taking control, then heaving to before its too late is the best option. Most storms pass in less then 8 hours, so simply waiting it out in somewhat comfort is a preferred choice. Never used drogues but they are used when running in large seas which I don't feel is a great option , but you must be prepared to if youre choices become limited. Parachute anchors used in conjunction with heaving to in winds above force 8 or 9 will help keep you at the preferred angle to the waves. Getting a parachute anchor up takes practise and time when at sea but motoring up to the anchor as you bring it in in conjunction with using a windless makes that challenge far less daunting.
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Old 22-03-2013, 09:04   #28
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Re: Storm Tactics for Double-Enders?

One of the issues that I have heard raised regarding a canoe stern is, there is less buoyancy and less ability to rise on a following sea. Of course there is less flat surface presented to the wave, so less force.
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Old 22-03-2013, 09:56   #29
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Re: Storm Tactics for Double-Enders?

I sail a canoe stearn now and at first I thought this lack of bouyancy may be a problem. I have found this not to be the case as long as you are not loaded too heavy in the stearn, which is the usual case for DE boats. I have sailed many types of boats and they all have their problems. I will say that Ive found that a real DE will hardly rise to a following sea at all compared to a canoe stearn or other type.
I spent many years commercial fishing in these kinds of boat hull designs and have crossed the bar thousands of times and have experienced better control in horse-shoe shaped or canoe shaped boats than sharp double enders or transom stearn boats.
The way I see it is the less you present to the following sea the better. Keeping control of your speed is important in a deep draft, full displacement hull.
Double enders were the logical hull type for crossing river bars and dealing with surf. They are probably the safest hull type there is when dealing with bad sea conditions.
Have you ever seen a life boat that wasnt a DE?
I wish I had the storage that new fat, wide designs have but I love my canoe stearn classic and when you're in love - logic doesnt enter into it!
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Old 22-03-2013, 10:26   #30
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Re: Storm Tactics for Double-Enders?

What I have done, and priority. I owned wineglass heavy boats, barn-doors, but not canoe sterns:

1) heave-to - easiest and quick.

2) warps and drogues - tried both effectively. Needed to slow down to 5 knots to keep control of the boat. Running kept calm and was able to self steer somewhat, but still was nervous about sidewinding or something snapping.

3) Parachute - was overkill during the time I used it. Difficult to set. Difficult to retrieve. Heavy strain. But I suppose was a good test practice.

4) Lie ahull - tried once; felt unsafe and uncomfortable.
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