heaving to, how to ? a question of chafe

[keelkicker]

hi all

a query on heaving to....

im ok with the concept of backwinding the genoa (i think) but do i:
a) let the sail lay across the shrouds (upper and lower on my boat) ??
b) furl the genoa and let the sheet lay across the shrouds ??
c) somehow run the windward sheet so that it runs inside the shrouds ??

i've been experimenting and it seems I can get my small 27ft boat to heave to at about 40 deg, moving at 1kt with about 2/3s of the jib furled away and the main 1st reefed, but the sheets are laying over the shrouds and that can't be good ??

any help much appreciated

KK

[Dockhead]

The headsail will lie against the shrouds. That's normal. As long as your spreader ends are smooth (and they should be in any case) this is not a problem.

[belizesailor]

Typically you would use a bit less sail area than what you would fly sailing in the same same conditions to heave-to. So, if furling gets just your sheets against the shrouds then that's not so bad. Chafe is only going to become an issue in that situation if you are hove-to in heavy conditions for a long time. In that case some chafe protection would be a good idea. Something that you can readily slip over the stay and secure...like a split piece of hose, or fabric tube, with small lines run thru it for securing.

[GordMay]

Greetings and welcome aboard the CF, KK.

C: Ideally (if practical), you should re-run the sheet inside or between the shrouds for a fair lead and avoid chafe altogether.

Or, chaffing gear as belizesailor suggests.

[estarzinger]

hmmmm . . . . are we talking heaving to in 'mild conditions for a lunch stop' or for heavy weather usage?

If for a lunch stop, I don't really agree with much of the above three replies (because they are not really 'correct') but I can accept they will not cause serious problems and are the easy solution.

For heavy weather, there should be NOTHING rubbing/chaffing. The sail and sheets should definitely not be lying or rubbing on the shrouds or spreaders. And putting some hose on the sheet as chafe protection may not last any time at all, will be difficult when the sheet is already highly loaded up and is a 'bandaid' in any case.

For heavy weather you want to do this properly. The boat happy, no rubbing or chafing. You do not ever want to have a known problem just waiting to happen and cascade into an even bigger problem in the middle of a storm.

In heavy weather you are almost certainly NOT going to be heaving to with a full Genoa in any case.

The OP seems to know the correct answer is 'chafe is bad'. He should set up 'second 'short sheets' (or relead the main sheets) inside his shrouds so they don't chafe.

[GrahamHO]

Just tack the main without releasing the jib / genoa sheets which sounds like you are doing. Then the main opposes the headsail and you go nowhere. Won't work with a self tacking jib. The jib shouldn't flap or move very much and you can make a cup of coffee. There shouldn't be any chafe more than with a normal tack.


You likely won't be doing that in a gale where heaving to can be taking all the sails off lashing the helm and retiring to a bunk until the force 10 gale abates. That's the way Eric and Susan Hisscock used to describe what they did. They never seemed to have problems. Good reading. From memory about 4 circumnavigations. Wanderer 1,2,3,and 4. I was once in an isolated holiday home in NZ Bay of Islands and they were anchored in our bay Te Hue. A boy in a dinghy with an outboard was going around and around their yacht. I later read their good natured complaints about that event in one of their books he was writing at the time. That bay is a good hurricane hole but so full of swing moorings now that there's not much room.


I've never had to heave to in a gale that but I bet others in the forum have. I prefer a sheltered anchorage.

[estarzinger]

Originally Posted by GrahamHO

You likely won't be doing that in a gale where heaving to can be taking all the sails off lashing the helm and retiring to a bunk until the force 10 gale abates.

That is NOT heaving to. That is lying ahull. And with a modern hull form it is about the most dangerous tactic you can possibly use in breaking waves.

It worked better with the Wanderer designs (we personally know the current owners of all the Wanderers) because they were narrower with more ballast than most 'modern designs' but even then it was not the technically preferred solution. Note that the hiscocks did not do much high latitude/severe storm sailing (unlike the current owners of wanderer III who have rounded the horn and wintered in south Georgia).

[Jon Eisberg]

Originally Posted by estarzinger

In heavy weather you are almost certainly NOT going to be heaving to with a full Genoa in any case.

Yup, for a backed headsail to be lying against the spreaders, that's typically gonna require a genoa with a LP of roughly 120-130%...

I'd love to see the boat that would heave-to like that, or the situation in which that would be "normal", or how long that sail will last no matter how "smooth" the spreader tips are...

;-)

[GrahamHO]

Originally Posted by estarzinger

That is NOT heaving to. That is lying ahull. And with a modern hull form it is about the most dangerous tactic you can possibly use in breaking waves.

It worked better with the Wanderer designs (we personally know the current owners of all the Wanderers) because they were narrower with more ballast than most 'modern designs' but even then it was not the technically preferred solution. Note that the hiscocks did not do much high latitude/severe storm sailing (unlike the current owners of wanderer III who have rounded the horn and wintered in south Georgia).

Sorry wrong terminology. Have you ever read Earnest Shackleton's account of being stuck in the ice South of South Georgia. It's the most amazing survival story ever. He was planning to cross Antarctica and another team on the other side were to set up supply bases. Shackleton and crew got frozen in.
Your friend and likely you will be well aware of that story.

How do you usually handle a hurricane when you are trapped in one? Or a tropical cyclone in the South Pacific where the Hisscocks often cruised ?

[estarzinger]

Originally Posted by GrahamHO

Have you ever read Earnest Shackleton's

Yea, he was a great leader. as such he also had some truly excellent team members. In my mind Tom Crean was the 'true hero' of the small boat trip to S Georgia. He was a truly skilled 'iron man'. I was asked to navigate on a re-creation of that trip, and decided I was neither tough enough nor skilled enough for it.

How do you usually handle a hurricane when you are trapped in one? Or a tropical cyclone in the South Pacific where the Hisscocks often cruised ?

Hah.
First you mostly try to avoid them by being in NZ during the cyclone season.

Second, you try to sail away from the center and away from the 'dangerous semi-circle'. In most cyclones/hurricanes you can actually avoid hurricane strength winds if you correctly move 50nm or so in the right direction.

Third, if you get trapped near the center in the dangerous semi-circle . . . . . it depends greatly on your specific boat and the specific situation (storm size, ocean currents, water depths, etc). There is NO single magic silver bullet that is the best answer for all boats and all situations. You should know how/when to use a drogue, how/when to run free, how/when to heave-to, how/when to fore reach.

...........

[Stu Jackson]

keelkicker,

Most experiences indicate that a 140 jib is too big on a small boat to handle a heave to without the boat turning through. What you're trying to do is to balance the sail plan against the rudder.

Most boats of your size work well with a 110 size jib to heave to and balance well.

Furl your jib in some before you heave to.

Many of the answers here have discussed heavy weather, very valid input. Are you planning that or just leisurely sailing conditions?

[GrahamHO]

Originally Posted by Stu Jackson

keelkicker,

Most experiences indicate that a 140 jib is too big on a small boat to handle a heave to without the boat turning through. What you're trying to do is to balance the sail plan against the rudder.

Most boats of your size work well with a 110 size jib to heave to and balance well.

Furl your jib in some before you heave to.

Many of the answers here have discussed heavy weather, very valid input. Are you planning that or just leisurely sailing conditions?

In my humble opinion genoas are often too large and 110 is more efficient. Tighten a 140 in and it can interfere with the main. If it's designed to be roller reefed the cloth will be to heavy. If it's light enough it will soon need changing. Obviously a generalisation depending on the yacht and location.

[cabo_sailor]

I may be totally wrong, probably am, but on my Cabo cutter I don't find any headsail needed to heave to. I flatten the main, however much I have up, and center it. A little bit of rudder and I'm stopped.

Granted I've not used this method in more than 30 kt. In that instance I spent 2-3 hrs and according to the chart plotter I drifted about 0.5 mm.

Maybe because I'm full keel and a true cutter with the mast a bit aft of a sloop?

Rich


Sent from my iPhone using Cruisers Sailing Forum

[belizesailor]

Originally Posted by cabo_sailor

I may be totally wrong, probably am, but on my Cabo cutter I don't find any headsail needed to heave to. I flatten the main, however much I have up, and center it. A little bit of rudder and I'm stopped.

Granted I've not used this method in more than 30 kt. In that instance I spent 2-3 hrs and according to the chart plotter I drifted about 0.5 mm.

Maybe because I'm full keel and a true cutter with the mast a bit aft of a sloop?

Rich


Sent from my iPhone using Cruisers Sailing Forum

Each boat is different, but under mail alone you are probably forereaching.

But, used to sail Corsair Tris which would heave-to under main alone and not forereach.

[belizesailor]

Originally Posted by belizesailor

Typically you would use a bit less sail area than what you would fly sailing in the same same conditions to heave-to. So, if furling gets just your sheets against the shrouds then that's not so bad. Chafe is only going to become an issue in that situation if you are hove-to in heavy conditions for a long time. In that case some chafe protection would be a good idea. Something that you can readily slip over the stay and secure...like a split piece of hose, or fabric tube, with small lines run thru it for securing.

Originally Posted by estarzinger

hmmmm . . . . are we talking heaving to in 'mild conditions for a lunch stop' or for heavy weather usage?

If for a lunch stop, I don't really agree with much of the above three replies (because they are not really 'correct') but I can accept they will not cause serious problems and are the easy solution.

...

Curios what you consider technically incorrect in my response?