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Old 17-12-2015, 17:40   #61
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Re: Going hard to wind, main sail trim.

This thread is probably a good one to point out the differences between racing sailors and cruising sailors without a racing background.
Racing does let you pick up some great techniques, some of which have changed or evolved over the years.
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Old 17-12-2015, 17:44   #62
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Re: Going hard to wind, main sail trim.

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Originally Posted by MarkJ View Post
This thread is probably a good one to point out the differences between racing sailors and cruising sailors without a racing background.
Racing does let you pick up some great techniques, some of which have changed or evolved over the years.
indeed.
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Old 17-12-2015, 18:03   #63
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Re: Going hard to wind, main sail trim.

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Originally Posted by thomm225 View Post
With racers there is no one answer like "traveler all the way leeward " etc because when there is a lull between gusts the traveler is pulled in

The same goes for steering. You try and keep the boat on the same angle of heel by steering up when a gust comes then back down as it passes.

If you have crew, you can also adjusting downhaul and mainsail tension, etc


You can always learn from these guys:


yep. asking where the traveler goes is much like asking "how long is a rope."
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Old 17-12-2015, 18:54   #64
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Re: Going hard to wind, main sail trim.

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Originally Posted by jrbogie View Post
no no no. traveler to weather and ease the main sheet twists the sail dumping air from the top reducing heal and weather helm while driving the lower part of the sail for pointing ability. works just like reefing the main.
Agreed, although the traveller need not be "all" the way to windward. It is a dynamic thing and can be played with between mainsheet and traveller. Also the vang should not be hard on if twist is desired. The OP had traveller hard to windward, mansheet hard, vang hard. Traveller should be "somewhat" to windward, perhaps all, depending on the boat and the conditions, vang on somewhat if the conditions are rough and she is pounding, to avoid the boom pumping vertically, causing turbulence and decreasing laminar flow, but allowing some controlled twist to dump air pressure aloft, as you rightly say. The vang is extremely useful in controlling the degree of twist, and keeping it stable. Boom should be close to or at the centreline but not to windward of it, as appeared to be the case with the OP's "everything hard" approach. And if she's still burying the rail, then a reef. Those who say "headsail first" or "mainsail first" are just arguing past each other. Each boat is different, and it very much depends on the characteristics of your own. With most modern craft the mast is well forward and so the main tends to over lever the headsail and so should likely be reefed first. Also as others have noted, in a rollreef set up, headsails become badly inefficient when reefed… In a more traditional vessel with a better overall balance it may be better to change the headsail (assuming a suite of sails and not a roller) and leave the main full, but ease sheet further such that the boom ends up to leeward of the centreline, somewhat.

If overpressed all vessels will slow down. This is simply to do with friction. The boat will be making leeway and dumping energy uselessly into creating turbulence in the water (ultimately heat energy). Laminar flow on the keel and the sails is the key, as is balance. Correct trim and balance will mean the vessel should be steerable with one or two fingers, in most cases. If you are fighting the helm, you are dumping more energy into the water and slowing the boat…

The fact is that each boat is rather different in what will work, so as others have said experimentation is the key.

As to the person who said "a sailor not a cruiser"… go fly a kite!
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Old 17-12-2015, 18:59   #65
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Re: Going hard to wind, main sail trim.

Lots of great suggestions to try out thank you. Love the robust conversation this group supply. A little more on my boat.... She is a very early 80's Ben Lexcen designed Viking 30, beamy at 10ft. Popular racer in their day but mine is now set in cruise mode. Not a fractional rig but has adjustable back stay, Unsure why?? Over tightening will only apply pressure to the forestay toggle and deck hardware.
The traveller is not particularly wide, while I said I had it set hard to windward it was likely not all the way as I wouldn't bring the boom windward of the centre line, but anything softer broke the airflow. Lower tell tails were flowing clean but maybe showing 20 to 30% updraft while the mid tails were more like 70% updraft. The top tails were tangled and not indicating anything☹️
Whether helm was generally not too bad, but I was conscious of dragging the rudder which led me to pondering about a better sail plan. We were maintaining 6 knots which is only about 1.5 knots shy of hull speed so I'm thinking not much to be gained by bearing off considering we can hold the course all the way home.
I agree, we were overpowered so apart from reefing the main and maybe furling the130 Genoa, the advice on de-powering using twist is something I need to practice and learn more about. Getting a racing sailer onboard is going to be the easiest solution and a great suggestion.


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Old 17-12-2015, 19:14   #66
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Re: Going hard to wind, main sail trim.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MollyJo View Post
She is a very early 80's Ben Lexcen designed Viking 30, beamy at 10ft. Popular racer in their day
Designed in 1972 under IOR rules she has a very small main sail and a very large genoa.
IOR rule boats often had a heel of about 40 degrees.

So, yes, look at furling the 130% genoa to 90% or less before touching the main.

There should be photos on Google.
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Old 17-12-2015, 19:21   #67
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Re: Going hard to wind, main sail trim.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MollyJo View Post
Lots of great suggestions to try out thank you. Love the robust conversation this group supply. A little more on my boat.... She is a very early 80's Ben Lexcen designed Viking 30, beamy at 10ft. Popular racer in their day but mine is now set in cruise mode. Not a fractional rig but has adjustable back stay, Unsure why?? Over tightening will only apply pressure to the forestay toggle and deck hardware.
The traveller is not particularly wide, while I said I had it set hard to windward it was likely not all the way as I wouldn't bring the boom windward of the centre line, but anything softer broke the airflow. Lower tell tails were flowing clean but maybe showing 20 to 30% updraft while the mid tails were more like 70% updraft. The top tails were tangled and not indicating anything☹️
Whether helm was generally not too bad, but I was conscious of dragging the rudder which led me to pondering about a better sail plan. We were maintaining 6 knots which is only about 1.5 knots shy of hull speed so I'm thinking not much to be gained by bearing off considering we can hold the course all the way home.
I agree, we were overpowered so apart from reefing the main and maybe furling the130 Genoa, the advice on de-powering using twist is something I need to practice and learn more about. Getting a racing sailer onboard is going to be the easiest solution and a great suggestion.


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you get it now. an adjustable backstay is useful on a masthead rig as well. yes it will tension the headstay and depower it but if everything is set up correctly it will bend the mast some as well. with a masthead rig probably the real benefit of an adjustable backstay is notable when sailing off the wind. easing the backstay will reduce headstay tension thereby powering up the genoa and the main. but as i said, everything must be set up right at the dock with backstay tension fully released and adjusting headstay sag as needed for overall adjustment ability while under sail. but now we're getting into rigging, a whole new ballgame.

by the way, i've heard many with a masthead rig say that they've removed the baby stay, which works with the backstay adjuster in bending the mast, to get it out of the way for tacks or placing a dingy on deck. one may get away with that with swept back spreaders, for awhile, but otherwise they risk the mast reversing and collapsing in on itself. if your boat has a baby stay it's there for a reason.
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Old 17-12-2015, 19:26   #68
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Re: Going hard to wind, main sail trim.

Maybe email this mob and see if they have a tuning guide.

They seem very active.
http://www.viking30wa.org.au/


Are you in WA?
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Old 17-12-2015, 20:28   #69
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Re: Going hard to wind, main sail trim.

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Originally Posted by thomm225 View Post
That was the point of rolling it up.....to decrease it's performance

This along with the mast prebend which will flatten the main more than he already has it, he may be able to pinch up to the mooring

Otherwise travel out a bit, fall off and go for speed if that doesn't work..................
Its inefficiency by having a lump of rolled sail on the leading edge is what I am talking about. Partly furled genoas also tend to get "baggy" along the luff. This leads to a deeper draft, that is also further forward, restricting the sails pointing ability and increases disturbed airflow.

From a performance perspective, when going to windward, I would always reef the main or do a head-sail change rather than trying to point with a partly furled genoa.

That said, in booze cruise/lazyass mode, when performance is no issue, sure furl away. But our OP was talking about overall performance.
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Old 17-12-2015, 20:32   #70
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Re: Going hard to wind, main sail trim.

Thanks Markj, yes I'm in WA where the Freo Doctor blows 20 kts every summers afternoon.
JRBogie, yes she was designed with a baby stay that had been removed before she became mine. Been thinking about reinstalling with a quick release system. I do need the deck space for the dingy but a staysail in heavy weather would be good to. I haven't heard of mast problems without the baby stay but then haven't been around the scene that long either. I'll do some research.


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Old 17-12-2015, 20:53   #71
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Re: Going hard to wind, main sail trim.

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Originally Posted by MollyJo View Post
Thanks Markj, yes I'm in WA where the Freo Doctor blows 20 kts every summers afternoon.
They have a pile of Viking 30 races in January so there's 3 choices:
1 go have a look and see what the do when the Doctor blows.
2 go crew on someone's.
3 go race your own boat

You will certainly see how they sailVikibg 30's!
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Old 17-12-2015, 22:18   #72
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Re: Going hard to wind, main sail trim.

One more thing - unless someone mentioned it and I missed it - you may be able to bend your mast aft at the top if you have a fractional rig. If you have a fractional rig, and can tighten the backstay, then do that. It depowers the top of the main. Also my experience is that when hard on the wind in 20 kts plus there is no way your traveller will be to windward. You get the shape of the mainsail right and part of that involves dropping the traveller down to leeward. Don't worry about any luffing of the main near the mast. Sometimes it may even flog a bit. If it is flogging too much then of course you have to reef. It has been mentioned but tighten the foot and the luff as this flattens the main and contributes to depowering it.

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Old 17-12-2015, 23:04   #73
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Re: Going hard to wind, main sail trim.

Thanks John, masthead rig though.
I know, every sailing book I've read says set the traveller to leeward, that is the conventional wisdom for sure. But after trying different positions I found I could point higher with the traveller up while maintaining what I thought was good sail shape. If I don't need to be too concerned with a bit of back winding near the mast then that is good news, cos I was trying to minimise it and hold my course.


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Old 17-12-2015, 23:19   #74
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Re: Going hard to wind, main sail trim.

[QUOTE=jrbogie;1990111] if rounding up is a problem, a shortened main with a big genoa will only worsen the problem.

With the CLR forward , how would that increase rounding?
It would actually induce lee helm. Not weather helm!
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Old 18-12-2015, 06:56   #75
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Re: Going hard to wind, main sail trim.

[QUOTE=ozskipper;1990804]
Quote:
Originally Posted by jrbogie View Post
if rounding up is a problem, a shortened main with a big genoa will only worsen the problem.

With the CLR forward , how would that increase rounding?
It would actually induce lee helm. Not weather helm!
I think you mean CE forward but I understand what you're saying. We're both waiting for the answer.

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