Freighters vs. Sailboats

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by donradcliffe

In open waters, if I am going to cross within 2 miles in front of a ship, I change course to go behind the ship. If I am in a near head-on situation, I go for a CPA of over 1 mile port-to-port, or over 2 miles if I want to go starboard-to-starboard (even at 2 miles I have had ships turn toward me and insist on going red-to-red). I do my course changes at a range of 8-10 miles, so that when I pop up as a target on the bridge at 6-8 miles the OOW doesn't have to take action. I also set my AIS alarm to 1 mile CPA and 45 minutes TCPA to give me plenty of time to act if I or my crew isn't paying enough attention--the external AIS alarm is the loudest 12v siren I could find at Radioshack.

In more restricted waters, I rely on the AIS chart overlay to see if the ship is in a marked channel or shipping lane. That allows me to predict the ship's course and speed changes, and modify the raw AIS data. I also don't hesitate to call the ships by name on the VHF and clarify things--in my admiralty court you are going to gain liability points if you don't use all means availabe to avoid a collision.

Exemplary seamanship!

If all of us were able to detect potential collisions at 10 miles and take appropriate action, then there would not be a problem at all. But alas this is not the case. I think that the statistically average WAFI (Wind Assisted F****ng Idiot) detects a possible intersecting course at an average of 1.7 miles, and 60% of the time is wrong in his assessment

[cappy208]

Calaculating your Thames Tonnage numbers Tug 579tonnes Barge 10078Tonnes

I will also compliment exemplary seamanship too!

[Captain Jeffry]

Spot On, Captain Donron! Very articulate. An old racer/delivery Captain of 300k+ miles once told me. 'Aim for her stern. When ya get there she be gone'

[cappy208]

Originally Posted by donradcliffe

If your boat is on autopilot, you don't need radar, AIS, or HBC to determine if you have a problem.

This seems to be a huge part of the dilemma. When it is calm enough to depend upon the auto pilot to keep a steady heading, to visually make an observation is NOT the topic. It seems to be when at sea in heavy seas, or inclement weather is the problem.

This is a specific issue amongst sailing vessels while at sea.

Typically power boats of this size are snug away in harbor awaiting a weather window. Personally, when on my sailboat I wait for a weather window at every opportunity. I get heavy seas as part of my work day. I surely don't enjoy getting pasted for fun!

[cappy208]

Originally Posted by Captain Jeffry

An old racer/delivery Captain of 300k+ miles once told me. 'Aim for her stern. When ya get there she be gone'

That may be true. But it invariably is actually breaking the Colregs! The Rules of the Road. This is a very convoluted issue.

Do you break the rules, and be safe, or follow the rules and have to extricate yourself from a deeper hole! How's that for an over simplified statement?

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by cappy208

That may be true. But it invariably is actually breaking the Colregs! The Rules of the Road. This is a very convoluted issue.

Do you break the rules, and be safe, or follow the rules and have to extricate yourself from a deeper hole! How's that for an over simplified statement?

Yes but it's the kernel of the issue. The COLREGS should be changed. The situation is regards sailing vessels and steamboats no longer applies.

Dave

[Captain Jeffry]

Above all else, avoid a collision. The answer is surely obvious. Court of law will ask what you did to avoid the incident. My anwer will always be...wait... I'm not in court because I was prudent. Has wokred for me for 45 years.

I have met some skippers lacking the safe answer and have found themselves in a pickle on more than one occasion.

[Lodesman]

Originally Posted by Captain Jeffry

An old racer/delivery Captain of 300k+ miles once told me. 'Aim for her stern. When ya get there she be gone'

I wondered how long it would take for this to come back - doesn't really work for a slow sailboat avoiding a fast ship.

[Lodesman]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

On another forum, an experienced English sailor said about this subject a pithy thing --

He said that if you detect a 0 CPA, start avoiding, NOW. Because they see us much further ahead than we do. If they have not started avoiding us by the time we detect the problem, then he's not going to avoid us -- either wilfully or he doesn't see us. So just start avoiding -- the Colregs allow the stand-on vessel to do that as soon as we have a reasonable belief that the give-way vessel is not going to take sufficient action.

I really liked that! I think there is more than a grain of truth in that.

Flies in the face of what you were told by your 10 merchent mariner friends. Depending on the situation they'll normally make their alteration from between 5 to 3 miles out, but in some instances may need to come in closer. If he hasn't made the move by 2 miles, then you can probably assume that he is not taking action as he should. You should certainly be capable of detecting a risk of collision before a range of two miles.

[Captain Jeffry]

Originally Posted by Lodesman

I wondered how long it would take for this to come back - doesn't really work for a slow sailboat avoiding a fast ship.

Thought we were talking about vessels approaching on an apparent static bearing to one another. Works for me no matter what the speeds of either vessel.

Sorry for the repetition.

Cheert~

[Lodesman]

Originally Posted by Captain Jeffry

Thought we were talking about vessels approaching on an apparent static bearing to one another. Works for me no matter what the speeds of either vessel.

Not much point in trying to avoid a ship where there is no risk of collision - so yeah, talking about approaching on a steady bearing. If you're sailing at 5 kts and the ship is at 25 kts, then it doesn't matter what angle it's approaching from, you'll be no more than about 12 degrees from his heading. You gonna point at his stern?

[Captain Jeffry]

What do you mean 'I'll be no more than 12 degrees from his heading'? If our bearing stays static, and assuming no one alters course, why wouldn't we collide?

[Captain Jeffry]

To be clear, the jest of the remark.. don't take the ships bow!!! Be aware, be alert, Abreojos! I'm not specifically talking about aiming at his stern. I think sometimes these forums tend to get a bit too technical when it is not warranted.

To be specific, aiming at his 'stern' 3 miles out is the rule I follow.

Cheers!

[Lodesman]

Originally Posted by Captain Jeffry

What do you mean 'I'll be no more than 12 degrees from his heading'? If our bearing stays static, and assuming no one alters course, why wouldn't we collide?

You will be on a steady bearing that is within 12 degrees of his bow, from whatever range you become aware of him, until you collide. At 3 miles out, you'll still be fine on his bow and won't be able to see his stern. So if not literal, what does "aim for her stern" mean?

[Captain Jeffry]

Serious?? It means alter your course to take his stern.

Wet birds don't fly at night ~