Do I REALLY need two poles?

[Snowpetrel]

The benefit of longer poles both in lifgt airs and stronger winds. This is about how I set up for each condition. For some reason they attached upside down, but just turn your computer or phone upside down and it should make sense...

[Nadezhda]

If you have two poles, make sure that you sail between them. The more equally you can keep them either side of you, the closer to the equator you will be and the warmer you will feel.

[El Pinguino]

Something to be considered can be found here.. Camomile – Downwind Sailing - ppt download

[UNCIVILIZED]

Guys, with the below, I’m genuinely trying to work through some questions which have come to mind about this setup. Not to passive aggressively undermine it. But rather to learn when & why it’s truly advantageous to use such configurations, & the minutia of same. Along with what actions to take should things go awry.

So with 2 poles being run simultaneously, how are you guys advocating rigging them? Since it would seem like that at a minimum, per pole, we're talking about; 1 topping lift, 1 foreguy, & 1 sheet. And an afterguy wouldn’t hurt either. Especially if it’s blowing, or just to firmly stabilize the pole in the light stuff. Where If the pole’s end moves around much, it’ll degrade the sail’s performance quite a bit. Plus if the main is up, even if it’s reefed, then that means a preventer as well, along with the other above rigging. Non?

Is a double headsail rig really so much of an advantage over running at 130-160 with a kite & the main? Asym or Standard kite. As from most of the feedback about such a rig here on CF, one would think so. But… at what point, & in what conditions does the rigging of the extra control lines, & juggling of dual headsails, make it worth the effort as opposed to using a kite? And to extrapolate on that: It can be a kite either; in a sock or with a furler, on a prod or on a regular pole, a combination of any of these, or some other configuration.

Also should you have an MOB with a double headsail rig, how do things work with so many lines & sails interwoven up forward, in terms of stopping the boat, & heading back towards the immersed crew?
Such is not something that I have much experience or practice with, & I haven’t run across anything recommending procedures for same with a double headsail rig. So what’s the plan then?

[Cheechako]

I would just use the telescoping pole for either. I seriously doubt you will need to use both sails at once much anyway.

[Seighlor]

Uncivilized,

As a rule, your posts are among the most knowledgeable on the board. Something of a surprise to see you asking a question.

My experiences are generally as a solo or shorthanded sailor and I've always rigged my pole with an afterguy and and the boom with a preventer. When sailing deep I carried two headsails and no mainsail or a deeply reefed mainsail... whatever provided the best balance. When sailing with two headsails and no mainsail, the windward headsail would be sheeted to the pole; the leeward headsail to a block at the end of the boom.

In terms of distance sailed, my three best days ever were with a poled out 110% jib and the mainsail carried with a single reef and secured with a preventer. Each day was a remarkably consistent 220-225 miles without ever approaching a winch to alter sail trim.

As to a MOB situation, my thought would be to drop the headsail halyards ASAP, secure the sails on deck and make my way back to the MOB with engine power and the mainsail. Having the pole secured with a foreguy, afterguy and topping lift precludes any necessity to deal with the pole until such time as it is convenient.

I look forward to viewing the thoughts of others.

[estarzinger]

Originally Posted by UNCIVILIZED

So with 2 poles being run simultaneously, how are you guys advocating rigging them?

The best way to rig a pole for downwind jibs is to use a topping lift and a fixed length bridle (that is true if you are using one or two poles). The bridle replaces both fore and aft guys - it is just a line with three clips on it in the exact right positions for a specific jib (or it might have a couple more clips so it can be used with two different sized jibs - but we always had a bridle specifically for each jib). You just clip the two ends to the toerail, fore and aft, and the middle clip to the pole end and hoist away and the pole is immediately totally stabilized in the perfect location, with no muss or fuss. Real nice at oh dark hundred. We used 6mm bare dyneema which was a feather weight pocket size package for Hawk.

[FONT=Calibri][COLOR=black][SIZE=3]Is a double headsail rig really so much of an advantage over running at 130-160 with a kite & the main?

The double head rig is Hugely more versatile and less fuss - if the wind gusts up and down or shifts back and forth - you can run it all night with solo watch during squally nights with no stress at all and no need to wake the off watch ever. It is also a super balanced and self-correcting sail plan - terrific for a wind vane but also useful under autopilot.

Typically in cruising terms it is as fast as the chute in most conditions. There is one narrow condition where that is not true, when the wind is very light and there is still a bit of lumpy sea running, the chute light fabric and shape can stay full when the jibs will not. In those conditions we would run the chute alone (no main), set in the conventional way (tack on pole) flying right out front of the boat. But that was pretty rare, and rarer after we got the zero fabric right.

Long distance short handed down wind sailing is one area where cruising sailing and racing sailing diverge the most. In racing you are not even allowed to use two poles this way, so it never even comes up.

should you have an MOB with a double headsail rig, how do things work with so many lines & sails interwoven up forward, in terms of stopping the boat, & heading back towards the immersed crew?

Again, done in the best way, there is really not all that much extra rigging, and it is all very simple and clean. One of the jibs is usually a roller furler - so you just roll it up and can leave the pole in place. For us the other jib was also on a zero furler, so it could also be immediately rolled up. But if it is a hank-on you drop, if the wind is not too strong you can just leave dropped with clew on pole - if the wind is strong you would need to clean up a bit more.

If you go chutes, you really probably want to go apparent wind hunting (eg sailing angles), and it helps to have a boat design that is responsive enough so it will build apparent wind. That is a different style of downwind sailing. We would do both, often apparent wind sailing when the wind was quite light (say under 6kts true) but also very stable; and poled jibs when the wind was stronger or more gusty/variable. Poled staysail and reefed jib DDW in 40 is pretty nice - fast and extraordinarily balanced and stable.

[barnakiel]

Imho extremely long and preferably ultra light poles are a HUGE help in setting up fore sails. If you expect much running in light conditions, you may consider building up this particular arsenal.

My two comments: A Doyle UPS is not a running sail and it is not a great downwind sail. It is more of a reacher. It does not set deep downwind very well without poling the sheet way out. At times, your mainsail boom can be used to this end; but a proper long stake is way better.

If you plan to use your genoa downwind (again, I mean deep reach to rub) then you want to make sure it is a light sail. Most allround genoas suck big way when running in light winds. They are just way too heavy.

When we crossed (Panama / islands / Australia) it was very light (less than 15 knots) maybe 70% of the time. The first time we got any reasonable wind was past Tonga.

Cheers,
b.

[Paul Elliott]

Originally Posted by estarzinger

The double head rig is Hugely more versatile and less fuss - if the wind gusts up and down or shifts back and forth - you can run it all night with solo watch during squally nights with no stress at all and no need to wake the off watch ever. It is also a super balanced and self-correcting sail plan - terrific for a wind vane but also useful under autopilot.

Yes to this, and to the the rest of Evans' post. We have spent days running under twin genoas, sometimes with two poles, other times with a pole and the other sheet running through a snatch-block at the end of the boom. This is a self-correcting arrangement -- if you get spun by a wave the sails pull you back on course. We usually have the main deeply reefed when running twin headsails. Since we are rigged for symmetrical spinnaker sailing and carry spare lines we don't use the "bridle" that Evans suggests, but that sounds like great idea,

We've also spent days running with poled out genoa and the full main prevented out to the other side (wing and wing). This is simple and works well, but is not as stable as the twin headsails since the port/starboard center of effort is not balanced. With the twins, the effort is up at the bow.

All this makes less sense if you have a have a light and fast boat that planes, and you are willing to pay constant attention. On my heavy and slow boat when the wind is up our best point of sail is pointing directly where we want to go, and when that is close to downwind the twin headsails give the most comfortable and stable ride. Some people complain about excessive rolling with the twins, but I've found that this is a function of waves and wind angle, not so much the sail configuration. We roll about the same whether we are flying the twins, or running genoa and main wing and wing .

[The Smokester]

Originally Posted by Paul Elliott

...All this makes less sense if you have a have a light and fast boat that planes, and you are willing to pay constant attention. On my heavy and slow boat when the wind is up our best point of sail is pointing directly where we want to go, and when that is close to downwind the twin headsails give the most comfortable and stable ride...

This is what I was going to say. It depends on the boat and how anxious you are. For a displacement boat, you are not going to do much better than hull speed, so this "butterfly" arrangement with twin head sails allows pointing directly down wind with good stability when the wind pipes up.

When the wind is lighter and you can't do hull speed with white sails only, turning upwind (to say 150 degrees) and flying an asymmetric spinnaker can give faster VMG. Cos(150 degrees) = 0.87 so you lose about 13% VMG by pointing away from downwind but will sail faster, usually for a net gain.

If your boat planes, the above just doesn't apply.

[GrahamO]

This thread is very helpful but it is clear that it is a bit premature as I have not really landed the sail inventory yet. In order not to degrade this great thread I have posted a new question on sail inventory here.

Thanks again for all the great input!

[Cheechako]

Also, often the best point of sail is not direct downwind anyway. Reach a bit, then one sail doesnt need a pole.

[GrahamO]

OK,
Had a good discussion on sails and I'm dropping the UPS idea and staying as-is which is to say:

1. A triple-reefed stackpack main and storm tri-sail
2. A 120% high cut furling genoa
3. A small 100% removable furling stay sail on an inner stay
4. An asymmetric with ATN snubber

At the moment all I have is a mast-mounted telescopic pole which seems universally loathed. So questions:

1. Should I keep the tele pole as a backup / genoa pole (it is fully retracted for that job) and get a fixed length spinnaker pole or should I get rid of the telescopic altogether?
   
   
2. If I get an additional pole presumably I will store it on the rail but then I am assuming I will need to put pole rings on the mast either side of the pole track. Is that correct?
   
   
3. Assuming the new pole is going to be mainly for downwind on the Asym, how do I calculate the best length?

Sorry about all the questions but this is WAY more complicated than I anticipated. Please hang in there.

[JPA Cate]

Graham,

Re-read evans' post #22. Let it sink in: visualize it all.

With the asy, you'll want to reach up a bit, that means you won't be DDW. If you think you want to go DDW, imo, you need "twin headsails, or only one, or a full shouldered chute, and even then, it will be a pita when the sea is up and the wind is down.

We never have used the spinnaker much at sea, usually too much motion for it to set well, keeps spilling out the air. That doesn't happen so much with the poled out genoa, which you may have to flatten. You could, on a light wind day, take your adjustable whisker pole, and see if you can extend it, squared off, enough to flatten it, as shown in snow petrel's pic in the other thread. Then measure what that length is. Assuming it's long enough, of course.

Afterwards, well, you can always decide later, no one likes to part with already purchased gear, but keeping it will just add to deck clutter, and weight. You can always keep it till it breaks. And buy or fabricate a new pole when the time comes. Just remember, it can break at night in a rain squall, and be hard to handle the flailing parts.

Your answer will partly depend on your risk tolerance.

Ann

[Paul Elliott]

Originally Posted by JPA Cate

Just remember, it can break at night in a rain squall, and be hard to handle the flailing parts.

More than hard to handle! When a pole breaks it can be under tremendous force and the pieces can be deadly if you get in the way. We use carbon fiber poles and have broken a couple during broach / round-downs. The broken ends are razor sharp and could have impaled someone when they broke free. I suppose aluminum poles aren't quite as vicious, but you still need to be careful (and lucky).