Back down with the windlass or the snubber?

[Dennis.G]

Originally Posted by Suijin

I let out my planned scope, leash the chain, back down at @ 1500 RPM, then set the snubber. I don't have a chain stop and adding one would be a major modification.

As for just drifting back vs. power setting the anchor, I like knowing that the anchor is actually set. I can't think of any valid reason not to power set but I suppose someone will provide one. It's an anchoring thread after all.

Yep, an anchoring thread...

If in areas where the bottom is soft mud, or thin sand over rock (or ...) a quick pull on the anchor before it has had time to settle in with likely yank in out and result in endless resets. If anchoring in good bottom conditions no problem, but a lot of sea beds require patience to get the anchor set.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by billknny

Why do you "set" the anchor with 2/3 of your ultimate scope out?

Probably because someone told you that is the right way, but it is NOT.

Don't back down until you have your full scope out. In fact, don't "back down" right away at all!

Think about it for just a second... If you drag in the initial attempt, what is your response? LET OUT MORE SCOPE! So just let it all out at the beginning, and do NOT drag your anchor across the bottom until it is ready to really dig in. Dragging the anchor before it has all the scope it need to dig in risks fouling it with debris, grass clumps, and other stuff.

That is the procedure recommended by Rocna with an explanation of why:

Anchor Setting Tips | Rocna® Anchors

And if you don't believe them, surely you'll believe me...

https://fetchinketch.net/boat_though...oring-is-easy/

Well, do, of course, what works for you, but I have not had good luck setting the anchor with full scope out.

I was taught at my Dad's knee to set the anchor with 2.5:1 or 3:1 out and no more, and it was explained to me that this is because too much chain dragging on the bottom attenuates the force to the anchor, and also you can't feel anything about how it is setting.

I have tried a number of times setting various anchors with full scope out, for different reasons -- either laziness (because I didn't want to keep going back and forth to hook and unhook the chain strop), or because I wasn't getting a good set on short scope and thought more scope would improve my chances. It never worked.

But that's my experience, possibly influenced by the heavy chain (1/2") I use. YMMV.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Suijin

I let out my planned scope, leash the chain, back down at @ 1500 RPM, then set the snubber. I don't have a chain stop and adding one would be a major modification.

You don't need a chain stop -- you can simply use a strong strop, as strong as the chain. Mine is stainless steel chain, but Dyneema would make a good one. If you rely on the snubber to connect the chain to your boat, you are creating an extremely weak point in your ground tackle. To be elastic enough, the snubber is much weaker than your chain, plus if it's nylon, it gets weaker when wet, is vulnerable to sudden failure from cyclical loads, is vulnerable to chafe. Snubber do break (happened to me three times in my cruising life), and you may lose your boat if that's all that's holding your chain to your boat.

Originally Posted by Suijin

As for just drifting back vs. power setting the anchor, I like knowing that the anchor is actually set. I can't think of any valid reason not to power set . . .

Amen!

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Dennis.G

Yep, an anchoring thread...

If in areas where the bottom is soft mud, or thin sand over rock (or ...) a quick pull on the anchor before it has had time to settle in with likely yank in out and result in endless resets. If anchoring in good bottom conditions no problem, but a lot of sea beds require patience to get the anchor set.

You guys are not contradicting each other. Suijin didn't say he doesn't wait for the anchor to settle if necessary.

And waiting for the anchor to settle doesn't eliminate the need to power set the anchor, once it's sunk in.

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by Don C L

I can see letting out 2/3 for the purpose of feeling if the anchor is biting or not but not trying to fully set it that way. In my neighborhood I am often suspicious that the anchor may have landed on a loose lump of kelp and will not set, so I test it to see if it is biting. If it is I let it all out and set it firmly. If you are worried your cleat or Samson post may not be up for it, you need a new cleat.

I might buy this if you don't have an anchor winch to save a bit of effort (even that is a bit of a reach) but with winch there really isn't a saving in effort, so just put out the scope and back down on it.

If it doesn't set, you need to pull up and try again (or do something else) until it sets.

Definitely do back down on it. I don't want to find out late at night when the wind pipes up that it wasn't holding well.

[Simi 60]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

If you rely on the snubber to connect the chain to your boat, you are creating an extremely weak point in your ground tackle. To be elastic enough, the snubber is much weaker than your chain,:

Our 20mm nylon snubber is, if i am not mistaken, pretty close to the breaking load of the chain.

The snubber stretches - the chain does not.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Simi 60

Our 20mm nylon snubber is, if i am not mistaken, pretty close to the breaking load of the chain.

The snubber stretches - the chain does not.

Well, you may be the exception which proves the rule. Or maybe not.

Be sure to discount that strength for wetness and cyclical loads, and think about chafe. The snubber's nominal strength may be very different from its realistic practical strength. It's intended to stretch and move around and that makes it vulnerable to different issues which chain or a proper chain strop is not.

But 99% of cruisers are not using 20mm snubbers. They are using light ones with a fraction of the strength of the chain even nominally. This is an accident waiting to happen in my opinion.

[a64pilot]

I used to use 5/8” three strand nylon as a snubber with 5/16” chain.
Until one night I drug no matter what and it was pointed out to me that a snubber that big wasn’t giving me enough elasticity. I now use a much longer and thinner line as a snubber and attach it to the midship cleat to give more stretch.
Using a snubber with breaking strength close to your chain may be too much overkill, it was for me.

PS, I don’t think the snubber was why I was dragging, but it was a valid point.

[Suijin]

Originally Posted by Dennis.G

Yep, an anchoring thread...



If in areas where the bottom is soft mud, or thin sand over rock (or ...) a quick pull on the anchor before it has had time to settle in with likely yank in out and result in endless resets. If anchoring in good bottom conditions no problem, but a lot of sea beds require patience to get the anchor set.

I misspoke, or was not fully accurate; I don’t always let out my full scope; I’ll let out 3:1-5:1 depending and the back down. If the anchor does not set due to pillowy mud, I’ll know right away and that information is valuable in making decisions and level of confidence. But backing down right away gives me information I would not otherwise have.

As for anchoring in thin sand over rock, letting the anchor “settle” and then pronouncing it “set” because the boat is not moving is an exercise in self deception.

Perhaps what kind of anchor one has is a factor. With my CQR (which is now my 2nd backup) setting it sometimes required finesse. The Rocna on the other hand is very black and white. I’ve never had it drag after backing down on it except in conditions where other factors were to blame.

[Mike OReilly]

My general anchoring technique has me putting light tension on the rode/anchor somewhere around 1/2 to 2/3rd of the expected full rode length. I have a manual windlass, and can gently feather the clutch as the rode is rolling out. I can usually feel the anchor setting, but I’ll often put my hand or foot on the chain to really read what is happening down there — I find anchoring to be quite a tactile activity.

Most of the time I do this using the boat’s reverse momentum. This helps keep the rode running cleanly, keeps our boat from building up too much reverse momentum, and to begin the setting process of the anchor.

Once the anchor is set, and the rode is out to near-full, I'll begin the process of digging it in. I almost always use the engine for this, although if there is enough wind I sometimes use the sails or even the boat’s momentum. I think there is a distinct stage between setting the anchor and fully digging it in.

It is the final stage which ensures we're likely going to stay put when the wind or current switches. If the anchor is not dug in, it could pop out in a shift, instead of crabbing around. If it pops out in a sudden shift you’re just relying on the re-setting capability of your anchor, which luckily is quite good for the new-gen style. But I feel more comfortable knowing my anchor is well dug in.

[sailor_ed]

Against my better judgment i am going to post in an anchoring thread! Why am I afraid it will not go well for me?! ;-)

All that has been said so far is reasonable but there is at least on circumstance in which initial "setting" is best done on very short scope with nylon rode and almost no chain and this is when setting a "Danforth /Viking" style anchor in very soft mud. This technique will get a set when no other will. And I think there are those out there that will agree.

This is how it works. You rig your fluke style anchor with no more than 3 ft of chain on an all nylon rode. Drop the anchor to the bottom and let out to no more than about 2:1 scope. The line is then jerked (I call it "fishing") until some resistance is felt. Immediately cease "fishing" and let out your desired scope. Then back gently at first and then more firmly until you are satisfied its set(given that we have already established that this is probably not the best holding ground.)

This is why it works. When the anchor hits the bottom the flukes present a large surface to the mud and tend to "float" on its surface. The shank being thin tends to sink below the flukes. In this attitude it is very difficult to achieve a set, usually it just skates along the bottom even leading some to think it is hardpan. Having chain on the anchor just makes the shank dig deeper and also makes it hard to "fish" the shank up out of the mud to start the flukes to bury.

While this is a special case anchoring situation it is still a good technique to have I one's box of tricks. Sometimes it is the only thing that works.

[mikedefieslife]

Originally Posted by billknny

Why do you "set" the anchor with 2/3 of your ultimate scope out?

Probably because someone told you that is the right way, but it is NOT.

Don't back down until you have your full scope out. In fact, don't "back down" right away at all!

Think about it for just a second... If you drag in the initial attempt, what is your response? LET OUT MORE SCOPE! So just let it all out at the beginning, and do NOT drag your anchor across the bottom until it is ready to really dig in. Dragging the anchor before it has all the scope it need to dig in risks fouling it with debris, grass clumps, and other stuff.

That is the procedure recommended by Rocna with an explanation of why:

Anchor Setting Tips | Rocna® Anchors

And if you don't believe them, surely you'll believe me...

https://fetchinketch.net/boat_though...oring-is-easy/

Surely if you end up dragging it, you need to weight it and start again otherwise you've missed the spot you wanted to anchor in. Perhaps not an issue in big deserted anchorages, but would definitely be an issue in the Med, especially in the Balearics where weed is a problem and you're trying to set the anchor in a small patch of sand.

Cheers for the Rocna link.

[Simi 60]

Originally Posted by Suijin

Perhaps what kind of anchor one has is a factor. With my CQR (which is now my 2nd backup) setting it sometimes required finesse. The Rocna on the other hand is very black and white. I’ve never had it drag after backing down on it except in conditions where other factors were to blame.

While not a rocna owner (supreme for me) I agree.
If you need to do any more than drop it, pour an adult beverage and let the anchor self set where it was dropped you have an inferior anchor and its time to get one that works.

[DMCantor]

Here's our procedure, stolen from the excellent sailor Bill Cullen:

1. Let out full scope. If holding is questionable, let out some more.
2. Pop the tab on a beer. Savor the flavor as it goes down.
3. Rig the snubber.
4. Wait a while longer. A good time to clean up the running rigging.
5. When the boat swings behind the anchor, engine to reverse idle.
6. Wait some more. A second beer may be in order.
7. Slowly (slowly!) increase rpms until you get to 1500 in mud or 1800 in sand.
8. Wait a bit longer.
9. Ta Da!

We have an oversized Rocna, and this works every time.

[Jim Cate]

Originally Posted by Simi 60

While not a rocna owner (supreme for me) I agree.
If you need to do any more than drop it, pour an adult beverage and let the anchor self set where it was dropped you have an inferior anchor and its time to get one that works.

No, IMO you (the drop and forget proponent) have an inferior technique, one that fails to recognize that the anchor may have fallen upon a bit of plastic sheeting or a towel or a pair of board shorts (all actual experiences of ours). In such cases, the anchor will never set and when the wind comes up, off you will go, dragging the lot behind you. The anchor involved in our case was also a Supreme, BTW...

It is so Supremely (!) easy to use a bit of power to verify the set that it is rather foolish to not do so.

Jim