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Old 21-08-2012, 17:10   #106
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Re: Anchored Vessels' Etiquette

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Originally Posted by stevensuf View Post
The other day I was passing the front of a harbour, about a mile outside, i notice a large power boat coming towards me on starboard, i watch him , he will pass behind me, ok no, he has changed course, so i revved up the engine to clear him, and he alters course yet again to pass on front, by the time he reaches me he had to drop out of plane, he throws his arms in the air , mumbling stuff in french i cant reply to,now i should give way to a degree , but he was slightly aft starboard, doing 30 plus knots and me only able to do 7, so who was in the wrong?
He was the stand on vessel. You were the give way vessel.

In this case I probably would not alter course but I would slow so as not to have to go out of my way. We can't tell how close it looked but I might have altered to starboard as well.

It is my burden to make my intention clear. Speeding up a sailboat from 6-7 knots or slowing from 6 to 2 knots is not always clear.

Powerboaters don't seem to be able to judge crossing situations well so I alter early. Sailboat racing is a game of inches and most experienced racers judge crossings very well.

In regards to the OP and anchoring I am with the courtesy crowd. Generally a first come first served situation although first comers should be careful not to take more scope than is needed.

However the scope is the skippers call as he judges the situation. He may be wrong but we should also be tolerant of other boaters. No need getting all stressed out.

Our anchorages have lots of traffic through them. It's also gonna happen. If it stresses you out too much maybe you need another hobby.
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Old 21-08-2012, 17:29   #107
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jackdale

From a Linkedin discussion

An explanation
??? I think I took away the opposite conclusion you did from your quote. Seems to say that we assume CBD in fairways, harbors, rivers, etc, but not in open waters. I think we would all agree with that.
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Old 21-08-2012, 17:54   #108
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There's a bit of a judgement call involved in such situations, but given what you've written, it sounds to me like you both made mistakes, but yours were the larger ones.

He was coming in from your starboard. He was going to pass to your stern, though, so no crossing situation existed in your judgement. You took no action. Now, if it was to be a close pass, then maybe your judgement was different than his. If so, he should have maintained his course and speed as the stand-on vessel. But he didn't. He changed course to create a collion situation. I think this was a mistake on his part.

However, once he'd done that, then he was approaching from starboard and so he was the stand-on vessel. You need to make an early and obvious correction to not only avoid the collision, but to make it obvious to the other captain that you are taking action. A sailboat is just too slow and too heavy for a change in revs on yo
The sailboat was almost completely at fault. The powerboater acted correctly the sailing vessel under power did not.

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Old 23-08-2012, 16:41   #109
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Re: Anchored Vessels' Etiquette

A lot of you are still missing the point; do not think in terms of "right of way" even here in a forum. There needs to be a complete overhaul of thought.
As a professional captain who at times has operated towing/pushing tugs, freighters and inspected passenger carrying vessels in various harbors, bays and rivers of the US, I can assure those of you who have sails up and motor off, you have no business interfering with the operations of any commercial vessel. Whether you are in a confined channel, whether the commercial vessel is constrained by their draft or not, you must keep clear. Bluntly put; you may not interfere with the operations of any commercial vessel while you are on a pleasure craft. If you do not believe me ask a coastie.
So forget trying to figure out who's the stand on vessel and give that commercial vessel a wide berth and stay alive.
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Old 23-08-2012, 17:16   #110
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A lot of you are still missing the point; do not think in terms of "right of way" even here in a forum. There needs to be a complete overhaul of thought.
As a professional captain who at times has operated towing/pushing tugs, freighters and inspected passenger carrying vessels in various harbors, bays and rivers of the US, I can assure those of you who have sails up and motor off, you have no business interfering with the operations of any commercial vessel. Whether you are in a confined channel, whether the commercial vessel is constrained by their draft or not, you must keep clear. Bluntly put; you may not interfere with the operations of any commercial vessel while you are on a pleasure craft. If you do not believe me ask a coastie.
So forget trying to figure out who's the stand on vessel and give that commercial vessel a wide berth and stay alive.
What!!!?????

Can you quote a single source that suggests pleasure craft need to avoid commercial craft?

The colregs would suggest otherwise!
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Old 23-08-2012, 17:28   #111
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Re: Anchored Vessels' Etiquette

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Originally Posted by cwyckham View Post
What!!!?????

Can you quote a single source that suggests pleasure craft need to avoid commercial craft?

The colregs would suggest otherwise!
Agreed, CW!

If his statement was true, I guess that all "commercial" vessels would have to fly a signal to establish their commercial nature... perhaps two dollar signs vertically displayed in daylight, lights the color of greenbacks at night.

As a matter of courtesy I attempt to stay away from vessels earning a living, such as workboats, tow boats, research vessels, fishing vessels and of course merchant ships. That is, I try not to ever get into situations where colregs come into play. But when circumstances force us into proximity, then colregs rule and I ahve yet to see the part where "commercial" comes into play.

Cheers,

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Old 23-08-2012, 17:34   #112
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Re: Anchored Vessels' Etiquette

I grew up sailing on Corpus Christi Bay, and I don't think I would use an anchor bouy at all. The water is shallow enough to free-dive to the bottom about everywhere, so as a diver yourself, that's maybe your solution to what realistically would be a rare event.

Your comments about fishermen and high-speed boats are spot on, sadly. Things have really changed over the years with the idiot count on the water now being considerably higher. I don't know if there is an answer to this problem besides exceptionally high fuel prices. I wish it weren't so.
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Old 23-08-2012, 17:50   #113
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Re: Anchored Vessels' Etiquette

I have had issues in this area as an operator. Not to go into detail but suffice to say some idiots like to see if they can force their "rights" even when they have none. When they look foolish in front of their guests, they puff out their chests and call the USCG. The Coast Guard tells them in no uncertain terms that they had no business being in that situation and that they are required to keep a "reasonable safe distance" from any commercial vessel operating in the harbor, bay or river.
I was always notified by the Commander of the section of each complaint and the action taken (none in regards to MY actions). This happened several times in Charleston and a couple of times in the NE and Connecticut. Think Wednesday evening racers.
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Old 23-08-2012, 17:54   #114
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Re: Anchored Vessels' Etiquette

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Originally Posted by cwyckham View Post
What!!!?????

Can you quote a single source that suggests pleasure craft need to avoid commercial craft?

The colregs would suggest otherwise!
Its called common sense,something that the younger generation seems to ignore.

pedestrains have the right-of-way over cars and trucks. This means you have the God given right to jaywalk acrossed an interstate highway.
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Old 23-08-2012, 18:01   #115
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Re: Anchored Vessels' Etiquette

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Can you quote the section of the Colregs that says that cruise ships and freighters have the right of way (other than constrained by draught or in a designated shipping lane)?

Not talking about prudence or the ultimate responsibility of all skippers to avoid a collision, just talking about actual right of way (ie boat under sail is burdenned and freighter is stand-on).

This is conversation, not a law class, so my statements did not cover every conceivable situation, such as a freighter dumb enough to leave the channel when a channel is needed.

But generally, the boat with the worst maneuverability has the right of way. Freighters don't steer easily and don't stop quickly. It's up to the smaller, more maneuverable boats to stay out of their way. That is absolutely what the law says.

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j..._m_IYWL-B5TvoA
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Old 23-08-2012, 18:13   #116
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Re: Anchored Vessels' Etiquette

"In other words, in Canadian waters all large vessels are deemed to be constrained by their draft...... "


This is in fact recognized internationally.

Reading the actual law is only the starting point. There is also a whole body of judgments that decide implementation of those maritime laws. There may be no one footnote, but the class I took from the Coast Guard explained it as international maritime law, based on maneuverability. To avoid a collision, each boat MUST do whatever is necessary. Since a small pleasure boat is much more maneuverable than a big freighter or cruise ship, it is up to the pleasure craft to steer clear.

In addition, the freighters and cruise ships have limited ability to see the boats around them. The closer the pleasure craft is, the more likely the bigger vessel can't see it.

Almost always, Maritime law holds both parties at fault to some degree, even if it's 99% to 1%. But it's certainly at least possible that if the small boat hits the great big boat, the small boat will be held 100% liable.

You don't have to believe me. Ask a maritime lawyer. Or the Coast Guard.
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Old 23-08-2012, 18:28   #117
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Re: Anchored Vessels' Etiquette

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Whether you are in a confined channel, whether the commercial vessel is constrained by their draft or not, you must keep clear. Bluntly put; you may not interfere with the operations of any commercial vessel while you are on a pleasure craft. If you do not believe me ask a coastie.
This is certainly not international law nor anywhere near it.

Quote:
So forget trying to figure out who's the stand on vessel and give that commercial vessel a wide berth and stay alive.
However , this is good common sense advice, whatever the law says. I put it another way "Never stand on into danger"

Dave
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Old 23-08-2012, 18:31   #118
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Re: Anchored Vessels' Etiquette

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Almost always, Maritime law holds both parties at fault to some degree, even if it's 99% to 1%. But it's certainly at least possible that if the small boat hits the great big boat, the small boat will be held 100% liable.
That fact that admiralty courts may assign blame, does not change the COLREGS. Commercial shipping in open water does not have any sort of right-of-way. That is not to say that courts assign blame to both parties ( This is because rarely does each side do everything exactly correctly right).
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Old 23-08-2012, 18:50   #119
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Re: Anchored Vessels' Etiquette

"Pleasure craft do not have a unlimited right of way.
The COLREG rules provide right of way for vessels that are constrained by draft or manoverability."

Freighters have limited maneuverability. They can neither turn nor stop rapidly. In addition, they have restricted vision.

Same thing is true for cruise liners.


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Old 23-08-2012, 19:21   #120
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Re: Anchored Vessels' Etiquette

It is also worthwhile remembering that RAM, NUC, CBD, engaged in fishing are expected to show the appropriate dayshapes or lights, unless otherwise specified in the ColRegs, international or national.

For example a "commercial" fishing vessel with trolling lines, may not be deemed to be engaged in fishing, IF the lines do not restrict maneuverability.
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