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Old 20-11-2008, 10:22   #1
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Sense and Insensitivity!

We, of the cruising fraternity, come to these Forums to Learn, to Discuss, to Voice an Opinion and I think most importantly, to share a common dream.

But often times we run afoul of being insensitive when we use “actual” boat casualties or events to illustrate a point. (especially when all the facts are not yet clear)

It is quite normal and I think beneficial to learn from others misfortunes, but how can we publicly do this while being more sensitive to those “real families”, who are quietly trying to pick up the pieces of their lives?

May I suggest that when a Thread reports an actual casualty and triggers a constructive debate over procedural or seamanship issues…. a New Thread is started without reference to the individuals about whatever core issue some would like to discuss.

Example: When can the Coast Guard force you to Abandon Ship?

That way, we can focus on the general principles of the issue rather than an opinion of what you would have done in that skippers place, which I am sure we all agree, is pretty insensitive.


Curious if the Admin thinks that should be more clearly stated as part of the Rules?
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Old 20-11-2008, 10:41   #2
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You have to reference your thoughts to something...so whats going to be the differance?

I agree totally with not name calling like Idiot,stupid and all that but what good is there in even making a post if you cant coment on it in its entirety..might as well not have post and just log on to read the morning news...no comments needed.

IMHO it just sounds like another political correctness idea to me..but as stated I have no use for name calling if that is your angle..but I think that can be dealt with easier and in a different way then what your suggesting...I hope Im right on this or otherwise..because>...Hey I just got my fillings hurt in another thread.( true story )..maybe we can yank his post and make him start a new thread too.?
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Old 20-11-2008, 10:44   #3
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There is a difference in being cruel, and having an honest discussion. Unfortunatley the internet is wide open, and is not always politically correct. Yes, cruel remarks should be stopped, but the discusion should be able to continue open & honestly. Any person has the right to come in, and correct any misinformation.

Someone stated that some use as an excuse it is for us to learn from. It is not an excuse it is the truth. Someone will learn something about some else's misfortune. As a child I witnessed my younger brother put his hand in a hot fry pan. Just after my mother told him not to. I learned from his mistake, and never have I put my hand in a hot pan. Yes, by all means stop the insensitive remarks, but don't stop the discussion. Without an open & honest discussion there is only one side, and that's not being honest to anyone.
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Old 20-11-2008, 11:19   #4
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I read back through several posts on the Panache thread and decided my senses must be completely dulled because I really didn't see anything insensitive or inflammatory.

What I did see was a change in subject from events on the Panache to a good discussion on the Coast Guard and rescues in general using past events to illustrate opinions.
Past events make for great debate since most of the facts are known. I say most facts because any crisis involving more than 1 person will result in more than one story and often the only guys thinking clearly at the time of the crisis are barred from sharing their side of the story. Those being the men and women who respond to the emergency.
If we can't have some civil debate here regarding things that happen or have happened on the high seas as well as best this or that boat equipment then whats the point of participation. If there can only be one opinion then every post should be sent to a moderator for editing.
That would certainly make for a nice sterile environment. Every time someone posts a thought or question they are asking for opinions. They are going to get opinions. Some opinions come from the well informed and some come from those who just want to say what they think. Just like real life.

Some messages have more serious tones than others and that would make sense. We don't all express ourselves in the same manner.

I would still love to debate what the general publics perception is of the CG and how they handle incidents at sea. I said it before but but my sons mother was in the first CG Academy Class with women. Her first assignment was to take an 82 foot boat from the yard in Baltimore to Northern California. In the past 30 years she has responded to too many calls for help to remember.
Although we are no longer married we are still neighbors and connected by a 12 year old boy. I have had some great life experiences myself but I can still listen her accounts of things that went on offshore.

Yes to stopping the cruel and mean accusations and blunt statements but why stop debate.
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Old 20-11-2008, 11:24   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pelagic View Post
May I suggest that when a Thread reports an actual casualty and triggers a constructive debate over procedural or seamanship issues…. a New Thread is started without reference to the individuals about whatever core issue some would like to discuss.

Example: When can the Coast Guard force you to Abandon Ship?

That way, we can focus on the general principles of the issue rather than an opinion of what you would have done in that skippers place, which I am sure we all agree, is pretty insensitive.
I was thinking about this a while ago - maybe rather than more rules (just in case folk don't read them regularly ) how about adminland being proactive on this and setting up a thread as and when neccessary - maybe in Challenges? - and moving posts accross as neccessary.

Of course never a cut and dried split between the threads.....but insensivity aside IMO stuff like this is a useful way of discussing subjects - and going off track can be a good thing for that.....just in the initial thread does seem somewhat bad form, mainly cos' internet time is way quicker than real life - it's a very old subject after 2 days on the 'net.

I suggest a new thread "What would you do if the CG Helicopter launches a Missile as part of your (compulsory) rescue"
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Old 20-11-2008, 11:24   #6
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People that do ok on their own tend to be a pretty opinionated bunch. I definately am one of those opinionated voices. For me the trick is to let it remain a discussion. Such discussions over time have pretty much helped me to define what I do and do not believe. Along the way, several sides to each issue were discussed, many I would have missed if I did not have these discussions.
Unfortunately, part of learning is reading and listening to people with wildly different backgrounds, different age groups, very different economic situations, and wildly different ways of thinking. Some of the ideas others express are going to be offensive to all of us. What it is will be different for everyone, but the central thought remains. It is a discussion.
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Old 20-11-2008, 11:34   #7
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I think that there is a difference between questioning and discussing an individuals choice and actions ...and making personal insults, like they were "stupid"...(even if they were).

One is acceptable in my opinion and the other is absolutely not acceptable in a forum.

I think we can learn by discussing what may have been the mistakes of others. It would be too difficult to leave names out and have to resort to making references like "Mr X and Mrs Y". Unfortunately the reality is that there is very little anonymity left in this world anyway. If you do something that is newsworthy, then your name is going to be in the news whether or not you like it. Gossiping about relatively minor things someone did?...that's unacceptable.
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Old 20-11-2008, 12:03   #8
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I think that there is a difference between questioning and discussing an individuals choice and actions ...and making personal insults, like they were "stupid"...(even if they were).
One is acceptable in my opinion and the other is absolutely not acceptable in a forum...
Indeed.
The intention is to make the CruisersForum a nice safe place to play, not a totally sterile environment.
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Old 20-11-2008, 17:27   #9
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I think there is a big difference between a discussion over what member “A” or “B” chose as antifouling paint and critiquing what member “X” chose to do that ultimately cost him his boat.

Guys I have been guilty of this also and apologized even though that individual was very much promoting himself thru this Forum, asking for donations and getting under my skin.

While it is easy to add comments to a given example, it unfortunately “personalizes” that discussion and in many ways limits what should be said as constructive criticism.

I like DOJ’s idea to put hypothetical questions in the “Challenges” section so that brainstorming and free flow of ideas is not constrained by personal sensitivities over someone’s misfortune.
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Old 20-11-2008, 17:39   #10
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Its not about PC. PC is ridiculous and useless. I certainly read some unfair criticism on the other thread that was beyond defensible.

Maybe the posts were edited, regardless, theyre not worth my time going back to confirm.
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Old 20-11-2008, 20:10   #11
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Guys I have been guilty of this also and apologized even though that individual was very much promoting himself thru this Forum, asking for donations and getting under my skin.

Asking for donations?

I wonder if anyone actually sent money?

Could be a great way to make spare change to buy beer. Getting people to just send money for nothing would be almost as cool as when I hit the Liberian Lottery every week! That check is in the mail I heard.
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Old 20-11-2008, 21:36   #12
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Did you get that Letter from The Most Excellent Kwame M'Oingoboingo, Barrister, also?
I'm still waiting for the reply....I sent him my SS # and 3 Credit Cards and my Passport ID.....what more does he want?
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Old 20-11-2008, 22:06   #13
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Usually starts out like Dear Most respected,

I always do the same thing. write back asking for naked pictures of their wife and tell them once those arrive I'll send SSN, acct numbers etc.

No pictures yet and no money. Hmmmm
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Old 20-11-2008, 22:32   #14
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Did you get that Letter from The Most Excellent Kwame M'Oingoboingo, Barrister, also?
I'm still waiting for the reply....I sent him my SS # and 3 Credit Cards and my Passport ID.....what more does he want?

Ive laughed so much reading this guy's website. He keeps these scammers going for months at a time by baiting them with promises of lots of money. He works them like Chinese water torture, one drip at a time, until he drives them crazy.

He is sadistically wicked. He scams the scammers into copying pages of books, hand writing hundreds of pages, or duplicating maps by hand, hell, he even has them get real tattoos; And its all at the scammer's expense.

Go to the letter archive.

Welcome to the 419 Eater
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Old 21-11-2008, 04:51   #15
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Did you get that Letter from The Most Excellent Kwame M'Oingoboingo, Barrister, also?
I'm still waiting for the reply....I sent him my SS # and 3 Credit Cards and my Passport ID.....what more does he want?
Nah! it was Ronnie I was talking about.... I was a bit hard on him.

Anyway the point I am making is ....if a fellow sailor has had a major disaster, maybe we shouldn't dissect his actions on a Thread with his name or his boats as the title and opening subject.

Might be a bit more considerate to start a new thread and review any thing to be learned from that kind of event
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