Electric Car Economics

[StuM]

Originally Posted by ranger42c

What is Plan B for electric-only cars if juice is completely depleted? "Hey mister, can you spare a cup of electrons?" or some such? I've not seen much in the way of infrastructure addressing that, but then I haven't been paying much attention, either...

-Chris

Post #32 above!

[Lake-Effect]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

I'm investing several million euros into legacy planning for a large parking facility under an office/hotel complex I'm building, which my partners and I don't believe will be required for parking, already in less than 10 years. That is, building it with height and configuration and services which will allow it to be used for something besides parking when there's no demand for parking.

We agree that one way or another, it would be shortsighted to assume that the pattern of personal vehicle use is not going to change radically within the next 15 to 20 years.

[Rumpi]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

Thanks

You are welcome Dockhead. I should add that the good range prediction algorithm comes courtesy of the car sending all trip data (including GPS) to BMW regularly. This happens even if you "disable" it from the menu, so if you care about such things be forewarned.

If I would be confronted with your situation there would also be another option for me besides electric. That is convert an oldtimer to CNG. Driving an oldtimer or nice youngtimer is acceptable to business partners as long as it's something recognizable and in very good order. Citroen DS, Alfa Giulietta, an old Jaguar, whatever you like. Using CNG means using biogas directly, without conversion and is as clean as it gets. An old car has also a better total CO2 balance then a new electric (well at least one can argue that).

I wish you a nice time with your new electric and remember the rules: no charging if the battery is frozen (BMS should actually prevent that), no charging when at high % state of charge, no storage at 100%.

[FlyingScot]

Originally Posted by jkleins

... We are really in the infancy of battery tech unlike the late stages of ICE tech so it is fun to watch the improvements as they come.
Jim

Dry cell batteries have been around for over 130 years. I'd hardly call battery tech in it's infancy.

And I hate to be the spoiler, but it may be a while before we see anything significantly better than Lithium chemistry we are familiar with now. Many many billions have gone into the current Li production and implementation that we have today.

Of course I want to see better batteries, I just don't get my hopes up that anything is coming to mainstream market in the next 10-20 years.


As far as electric car, I really want one but my use case doesn't fit. I drive a 2003 5 speed hybrid that gets 45-50 mpg. 500-600 miles per tank.

I always advocated for the battery pack to be accessible and standardized in size/shape/connections. A small car might get one pack. Large SUV 3 or 4. Pull into drive through station, a trained technician takes a min or three to swap your depleted packs for fully charged ones. You wouldn't own the pack. Just rent it. Similar to BBQ tanks in the USA.

[a64pilot]

Originally Posted by markpierce

What's their range versus when air condition or heater is operating?

You can’t answer that question as there are too many variables, it’s going to be cut way down in city traffic cause vehicle speed is low and HVAC demand steady, then is it 100F or 80F , 50F or -25F?
I can only speculate based on our Prius, I normally got above 60 MPG in it, AC on. But I drove it like a Prius and didn’t do stupid things like accelerate into red lights, most people accelerate until the moment they take their foot off of the accelerator and put it on the brake.

However in the Prius it’s my understanding that in cold weather the mileage tanks, maybe down to 40 MPG or so, but the comparable car is getting maybe 25?

Toyota first launched a fleet of Prius cabs in I believe in Toronto knowing that was going to be a real tough place for a Prius to thrive, but they were after finding flaws.

The range of an EV vehicle will always be an issue, they aren’t highway cars, and anyone who buys one for that is foolish, that is why I said a Prius and a Leaf would have fit our family perfectly.

They way I see it is the only thing that will make an electric car or truck practicable for interstate travel is battery exchange stations, but that will take a standard battery, you pull up, likely in a captured spot like a car wash does to position you exactly, door opens in your car, a machine slides out one battery and slides in another, think like propane exchange and you drive on, you don’t even have to get out of the car.

Who knows if that will every happen or not, but it makes more sense than every home having a recharge station.
Now if fuel cells take off, and I think they will, then range is no issue, and maybe your car can at least partially power your house?

[sanibel sailor]

Did not read whole post.
I bought a used 2015 I3 REX in October. 12k miles since new, $55k+ USD list new. Paid 18k. Just turned over 19K miles today. I LOVE IT! It is a parallel to my 2007 Toyota Tundra which I rarely drive now. With the REX, no range anxiety. Quiet, great acceleration, kinda unusual. Do NOT miss gas stations. Seems the truck always needed gas when I am tight on schedule. Now it is literally 10 seconds to plug in and unplug. Charge overnight at home. Never worry about charging away from home unless on overnight trip. I driven to across Florida with a gas stop. Interstate speeds suck battery power fast. Still goes 70 MPH on generator charging. Transition not even noticeable. Make a 70 mile round trip commute every Wednesday, mostly on interstate. The generator kicks in at the very end (2-3 miles) depending on my driving style. Using AC cuts electric range from 85 nominal miles to about 77. Varies a little with ambient temp. Haven't needed to use heat here in Florida, but electric vehicles do generate it. Batteries have cooling system for both charging and I think discharging as well. Would not be surprised if BMW uses the waste heat. Fun car.
Biggest gripe is short tire life. They are unique to this vehicle, one choice and the rears only lasted 18,500 miles and were very bald. Fronts are lasting a bit better.

PM me with other questions.

[StuM]

Originally Posted by FlyingScot

Dry cell batteries have been around for over 130 years. I'd hardly call battery tech in it's infancy.

And I hate to be the spoiler, but it may be a while before we see anything significantly better than Lithium chemistry we are familiar with now. Many many billions have gone into the current Li production and implementation that we have today.A.

Rechargeable Lead Acid batteries have been around for 160 years.

Ni-Cad for over 100 years,

Lithium Ion for almost 40 years

[a64pilot]

People always get upset when I tell them that there is no new breakthrough technology in electric cars, especially the Tesla, they put it on a pedestal. Tell them it runs on Panasonic flashlight batteries and they get very upset, pretty much say your lying, you must be, or you don’t know what your talking about.
Then they go on and start making ridiculous claims, about how they are zero pollution and we can charge them from Solar panels on our roofs etc.

They fill a niche, and as long as you understand their limitations, they are fine, maybe even with time will be 25% of the auto population, but I hoe not more cause the electric infrastructure won’t support them I don’t believe, we have to solve that first.

What is coming I’m sure is the Ford electric truck and SUV, so that you can use three times as much electricity, and still feel smug .

In truth an electric vehicle should cost much less than an ICE propulsion vehicle, the parts count is far less, and the systems far, far simpler, the emissions controls alone on a gas or Diesel is extremely complex and with catalytic converters etc. it’s very expensive, then add in cooling and exhaust systems, transmissions. Not sure want all else.

However if I were considering an electric vehicle it would be a Bolt or Leaf, but not a BMW, that one wasn’t ready.
In truth I don’t know much about the Bolt either, but the Leaf has a strong following, the Tesla is good for its snob appeal, but not much else in my book, it’s a status symbol, which is nice to see a US vehicle being that in truth.

But I still believe that when “real” auto manufacturers spool up with EV’s Tesla will be a foot note.

For decades GM has been working on the “skateboard” concept. EV’s will really make that concept viable I think.

[Marc1]

Originally Posted by MarkSF

This is bollocks, or, rather, highly selective use of facts to fit a certain belief system, which amounts to the same thing.

The atmosphere is about 0.04% CO2, that is correct, but for the last 400,000 years, it has been an average of .025%. It has increased recently and rapidly, and that's entirely due to human activity.

Humans have contributed a small amount of the total CO2, that's true again, but you ignore the fact that the system was in equilibrium in 1800, before the industrial revolution. C02 produced equaled C02 sinked. The climate was stable for a very long time, about 400,000 years. Now, that is not the case, there is more C02 produced than is being sinked. Humans are responsible for ALL the excess, which is what is causing change, so humans are therefore responsible for ALL the change.
.

More nonsense.
So, I am right.
Yet you offloaded lots of words to twist a right into a wrong.

Let us look into your religious doctrine.
"The system was in equilibrium before the industrial revolution"
Equivalent to state that the earth is the center of the universe because the bible says so.
There was no equilibrium there was never one and there will never be. The climate changes according to many variables the biggest one is the actual source of heat, the sun, an certainly not a minuscule trace gas that is essential to life as we know it. Second essential variable after the sun is HO2. But you already know that, you are only repeating what the high priest tell you.

As for the sink or no sink, that is another nonsense. If 0.0012% of CO2 attributable to humans is causing temperature rises, then temperature variations should lag CO2 variations and that again is not true, the contrary is actually true, with temperature increases there is more CO2 released from the sea. , just like the "dramatic" temperature rises that are not happening nor the 9m sea rises that anyone in this forum know for a fact and direct observation that is not happening. More like 1mm per annum as it has always been.

We do have freedom of religion and everyone is free to believe that lightening a candle to Saint Pappalappa will make you win the Lotto.
The problem is when you pull a guilt trip on humanity doing the dirty job for a handful of mafia billionaires who benefit from this gargantuan fraud.
The biggest con job ever invented after religion.

[jkleins]

Originally Posted by StuM

Rechargeable Lead Acid batteries have been around for 160 years.

Ni-Cad for over 100 years,

Lithium Ion for almost 40 years

Yes but is a great stretch from being “in existence” and being optimized. How long was the ICE in existence before we started really trying to get more mileage out of it and look what happened. EV’s aren’t even really in existence for all practical purposes. Tesla is the only one really selling any number of them and all the other manufactures are racing like hell to bring them to market. Do you really think we have reached “optimal” battery tech? I give it 10 years or so to sort out just the little things not counting on any major breakthroughs.

Tesla is changing the manufacture of its batteries even as we speak using some tech they recently bought from some company. I have no idea if it will be a breakthrough but you have to think it will tweak the range, life, charging or cost in some significant fashion. Are you really trying to suggest that the lithium batteries we have today are just the same as the ones made 40 years ago? Do you really think that the research and development being done to optimize battery tech for cars compares in any way the R&D that was going on in the past in the industries where batteries were important?

I think the money that is being spent will improve the tech. I also am using the tech now and find it plenty good enough for most use cases so cost reduction of the current tech is really the most important feature I see happening to change the industry. That is something that we are pretty good at doing.

Jim

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by Woodland Hills

It is obvious that you have never owned an EV. You might have been for a ride in one a few times, but it sure sounds like you’ve never lived with one for a few years. I have.
I too had a 10 year old F250 as well as a 2018 King Ranch and neither had a smooth shifting tranny. If you don’t notice the shifts then you are simply mechanically insensitive. Modern engines can seem smooth to those who are unfamiliar with EVs, but maybe not so smooth when you are coming from 20,000 miles in an EV.
As for my not caring for performance, I have a 1000cc Laverda and a Lotus 11 waiting for me in storage when we move ashore someday. Google them......... I sold the V-12 car a few years back before moving aboard the boat.

Are you per chance related to the Princess?

You know, the one with the Pea?

Seriously had a 2hr drive yesterday, mix of city and highway. I purposely listened to hear the engine...only time I could hear it over the wind/tire noise was if I opened the window and stuck my head out (and then barely) or gunned it from a stop or enough to force a downshift...and then it was only for a couple of seconds.

If I need to become a conesour of quietness...it's probably not bothering me or anyone else.

Maybe you need to get your transmission checked if the shifts are bothersome. I had a truck one time with a transmission issue that had a clunky shift. Once I fixed it the problem went away. If I feel for it, I can tell my current truck shifted but if I'm not paying attention, I don't notice it...again, hardly a problem in need of a solution.

[sanibel sailor]

I drove my nonexistent EV to work today.

[LoudMusic]

Originally Posted by OldMan

I guess I missed that Elon added hotdog stands to his charging stations...


Remember, the more you eat, the battery range diminishes.....

https://electrek.co/2018/03/13/tesla...arger-station/

The existing supercharger locations that would be used for long distance travel are within walking distance of restaurants.

Why are you so hell bent on having an internal combustion engine? It's just more junk to carry around with you and maintain when it's not necessary to have.

[a64pilot]

Originally Posted by LoudMusic

Why are you so hell bent on having an internal combustion engine? It's just more junk to carry around with you and maintain when it's not necessary to have.

Because unless you live in major cities, and in truth not too many of those even, any kind of distance traveling by EV isn’t possible.
Even then there are issues with range, this article that came out today sums it up pretty good
https://apple.news/Az8m_BKirRFemhiTregO7Gg
Planning a trip based on refueling stations is not what we do, we drive until the gauge shows low, then pull over and refuel and go again. Until EV’s can do that, they won’t replace ICE powered vehicles.
Ref the trucks shifting hard, that is extremely common in heavy duty transmissions, it’s done to prevent wear, slipping slowly into gear when pulling heavy is not conducive to transmission life.
The exception to that is the Allison transmission used in the Duramax (GM) it’s computer controlled, and the transmission computer talks to the engine computer and defuels the engine. Transmission shifts, engine is fed fuel, smooth shift.
The Allison has to do that, there are no bands in an Allison, it’s pure clutch packs, if you remember how a School bus shifts, that’s classic Allison transmission, that was too harsh for a passenger vehicle so GM developed the refueling to match the next gear
Problem is people want trucks, but not really, they want to drive a luxury vehicle that looks like a truck.

So how do you live in a Dorm as a College student with an EV, how about an apartment? Want if you can’t afford a house with a garage to charger in and park on the street?
Seems to me that EV’s are focused for Rich people?

[Marc1]

Europe or Japan, are not Australia or the US.
Electric cars do work but are limited in autonomy and power, particularly towing, we don't have charging points, and if you live in an apartment, you will need a long cord to plug it in all the way up to the 20th floor. And who wants to pay triple the price?

And how much does this recharging of the batteries costs? At 50c a kw it is going to be a shock, see chart below, prices courtesy of our green friends who hate CO2 ( and the rest of human kind besides themselves)*

Off the grid? What does that even mean? Centralisation is the only way to be competitive and efficient, not each one making his own thing in his little cave where he also cultivates mushrooms. There is a place for that, sure. It is called a lunatic community. If one is into that, all the more power to him.

For those of us who have jobs, and business, and hobbies, and family, and commitments, we (the peasants) need to buy things ready made, and play in the field that is there for us to play, not up in the sky with lucy and her diamonds.

I would be the first to buy not one but 3 electric cars, providing their price is competitive with equivalent petrol or diesel, providing we have charging points everywhere I go, and providing charging takes the same time that it takes to refuel.
Meantime I enjoy my diesel engine and bless the world with it's CO2 fumigation. After all without CO2 we would be doomed. In fact, the more the merrier, particularly with the new mini ice age coming up.

I admire those who build their own charging stations, always have. And if you think this is a new thing, think again. We had folks tinkering with electric cars back in the seventies. Toss the engine and gearbox out, plonk an electric motor in place of the gearbox and batteries in place of the motor. Charging was as simple as a windmill charger up a wooden tower. Of course the charger doubled up also for night lights for the marijuana crop.

Not my cup of tea. I want to go from a to b, tow my 3 ton boat if needs to go for service, plan a 500 km trip without looking up power points locations and much more, same as 99 % of normal people do.
For someone who can afford a $100,000 second car for the wife to go shopping 2 km away, sure, knock yourself out and sleep sound in the delusion that you saved the planet.

No different from those who sail in stead of motoring because they think they are green. Then they spend twice my fuel bill on new sails and associated paraphernalia that requires tons of real pollution to manufacture (somewhere else of course) using oil to make the sails and to drive the machines that produce stainless steel and mine it's deadly components and i can go on for a week ... not fake like CO2 and that all gets' swept under the imaginary carpet of doctrinal delusion that CO2 is baaaad.

I love CO2, so I will buy an electric car when it makes sense to do so ... and fully aware that the electricity I use up to recharge the battery will produce just as much CO2, only somewhere else.

Unless we, like most of the rest of the world, go nuclear and hydro. But hey .... no no no, the green index finger is wagging right to left repeatedly, No can do.
And the government obliges.
Disgusting isn't it? It is in Australia anyway.

Listening to the logic about so called renewables is the same as listening to the numerous and contradictory claims of the many churches around the world who all claim to be right and that they will be the only one. Only one step away from killing you because you are wrong ... or you "emit" CO2.