Trust in a direct boat purchase...

[Robert Tilbury]

a sale is a sale , if its a car boat house , see a solicitor in the UK , they can do checks on money owing , and ownership ,

Please don't just hand over the cash , 99 out of 100 deals may work out ,,,, don't be the one that is dodgy ,,

Would you buy a small apartment in Spain with no legal representation ? No .

But when its all done ,,, enjoy !

[Clivevon]

Part 3 =no deal would be a bit harsh - but you get my point. In the end its up to you - its your money - but for me it would be entirely up to the seller to prove to me that he had clear title - I would want copies of all the documentation so I can take the time to examine it minutely.

If you were buying a boat from me - you would have documentation & a full service record going back years - you could make your own mind up. about whether I truly owned the boat or not.

If you were buying a boat from someone who basically said - " I cant really be a***d to provide all that" - then I would let him sell the boat to someone else.

Has he shown you full service history for all the time he has owned the boat? With bills? Or is he saying "I look after the boat myself, so there are no records I'm afraid...."

I'm not trying to rain on your parade - you asked the question about the deal so presumably you felt a bit unsure - I'm just saying that the question of clear title is as fundamental as your original question about whether you could rely on getting the Bill of Sale after handing over the money. Something made you ask that question...?

Lots of boats out there...

[roland stockham]

In Europe you also need proof that VAT has been paid or that the boat is exempt otherwise you will get stung for the tax again. Buying any boat not on Part 1 of the register, privately or through a broker mean you cannot know if there is a charge against it. However I have never heard of a bank that would lend money against a boat UNLESS it was part 1 registered and it is certainly a requirement for a marine mortgage so I would not consider this a big risk. Remember that Part 3 registration is not valid outside Europe and may cause complications if you want to transfer registration to another country, again because you cannot prove title.

[alansmith]

Heh Cranky, yes, it can be a bit of stress buying in a foreign country. There has got to be some sort of escrow company that protects the buyer and the seller. That is what they are for, right?

I have sailed out of Volos, Greece....there were tons of boats there. Lots of foreign owned flags flying and for sale signs everywhere. Got to be a way without getting yourself fleeced. The owner might be 100 percent authentic and a good guy. But i can tell by the way you wrote it that you have some reservations. Who wouldn't? I don't like the idea that he said the deposit one way...and the bulk of the money into his account....gulp.

Maybe he is suffering the same mental reservations about a foreigner taking over his expensive boat and you playing games with the money. Who knows? But you could have a sit down and explain your position and he can explain his position. There has got to be a way that proper transfer of monies and boat occur simultaneously without risk for either party.

Good luck and post up what you bought.

[surf_sail]

Originally Posted by Smokeys Kitchen

We have used a buyers broker twice on both of our sailboat purchases and would not hesitate to do so again. It was very helpful in both cases and there was no effort on the part of our broker to 'up the sale price' so he would share in a larger commission. It all depends on who you use.



Just my experience, YMMV

Smokey, since buyers brokers are almost never used in Europe how do you expect to convince the sellers broker to share his fee with your buyers broker?

Also in this case, would you expect the seller (who doesn't have any broker) to give 10% of original offer price to your buyers broker?

No one is saying that buyers brokers don't add ANY value. But are they really worth the 5% of original offer you pay them? I doubt it.

[ferrailleur]

like buying a car.... a clean title (no lien) bearing the name of the seller(s) is absolute proof owwnership.... plain and simple ....

[crankysailor]

Originally Posted by ferrailleur

like buying a car.... a clean title (no lien) bearing the name of the seller(s) is absolute proof owwnership.... plain and simple ....

Not really.. the problem is that there is no such thing as a "title" on a boat in the UK (at least under the part III registration which is what everyone has), nor in many other north european countries at least. You are really buying a chattel. It is not the same as a vehicle unfortunately.

[crankysailor]

Originally Posted by Terra Nova

From another thread:



Perhaps you are learning the value of a broker rather than going around one?

Funny enough, while researching this whole issue, I just ran into this article posted on some other thread:

Boat-buyers who get that sinking feeling: Sellers can hide unpaid debts behind lax registration rules | The Independent

an excerpt:

The couple registered the boat on the Small Ships Register after buying it. So they were horrified, early in 1992, when they received a letter from a finance company saying there was an undischarged mortgage of pounds 40,000 on the vessel. The Haddocks, it continued, would have to discharge this to get unencumbered title to the vessel.

...

Mr Haddock, who has run a fish-and-chip shop for 15 years, had no idea of this when he bought the boat in good faith from an established yacht broker. However, the previous owner had got into financial trouble and had sold the boat without first clearing the mortgage.

'Nuff said about that.. ask any broker if they guarantee that you won't have a problem like this. Then call me cause I would hire him immediately if he put that on paper :-)

[Anders]

Originally Posted by ferrailleur

like buying a car.... a clean title (no lien) bearing the name of the seller(s) is absolute proof owwnership.... plain and simple ....

SSR is not proof of ownership, car registration in the UK is not proof of ownership either and it says so on the registration document, the V5C.

[boatman61]

Hi Cranky.. I'm a Brit and as far as I am concerned if his name is on the SSR with no other names and he provides a bill of sale made out to him and signed by a witness that would be good enough for me.. there's very good protection laws against this kind of stuff in Europe.
However.. that being said you could follow a route I took when I bought a Hunter in the USA.. like you I was unsure about the security of buying in a foreign country so went with the seller to his bank and made the transaction in the managers office with the bill of sale witnessed and stamped by his bank manager.. the seller trusted me as little as I trusted him.
If your bank manager is as good as mine you can have the whole transfer pre-set and ready to go with a phone call.
Regarding the Part 1 Reg.. in the old days when it was run by Lloyds one got a Blue Book and the inside page folded out to x4 an A4.. it listed all information pertaining to the boat such as owners, number of shares held, marine mortgages and other relevant info.. these days since the State took over however its just a sheet of A4 with a minimum of info.
However going through the owners bank will give you a much more solid trail if he is trying to pull a fast one.. beats the hell out of a broker.
The call is yours to make in the end.. go with your gut.

[crankysailor]

Originally Posted by boatman61

Hi Cranky.. I'm a Brit and as far as I am concerned if his name is on the SSR with no other names and he provides a bill of sale made out to him and signed by a witness that would be good enough for me.. there's very good protection laws against this kind of stuff in Europe.
However.. that being said you could follow a route I took when I bought a Hunter in the USA.. like you I was unsure about the security of buying in a foreign country so went with the seller to his bank and made the transaction in the managers office with the bill of sale witnessed and stamped by his bank manager.. the seller trusted me as little as I trusted him.
If your bank manager is as good as mine you can have the whole transfer pre-set and ready to go with a phone call.
Regarding the Part 1 Reg.. in the old days when it was run by Lloyds one got a Blue Book and the inside page folded out to x4 an A4.. it listed all information pertaining to the boat such as owners, number of shares held, marine mortgages and other relevant info.. these days since the State took over however its just a sheet of A4 with a minimum of info.
However going through the owners bank will give you a much more solid trail if he is trying to pull a fast one.. beats the hell out of a broker.
The call is yours to make in the end.. go with your gut.

Thanks boatie.. I did think about some version of this.. i.e. I don't mind flying to the UK so we do this in person and I can see where the guy lives

I don't really have any reason to doubt him at this point actually.. actually very likable and even "adorable" couple I would say. Nonetheless when a good chunk exchanges hands between private parties, it behooves oneself to keep his wits ;-)

I have seen the SSR and the paper trail though very quickly so that will come of course. This whole train of thought arises more after reading horror stories about people who have gotten the shaft on a boat purchase etc. So you know.. doing my homework

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by crankysailor

I have suggested an escrow such as

https://www.transpact.com

But the seller has suggested they'd be ok with that for the deposit but want the rest to be wired directly to their account. Not sure why (trust in this company issues perhaps? has anyone had any direct experience with them??).

If I wired the money directly to an account, I am not sure what would guarantee that I do get the bill of sale and keys to the boat after transferring the money etc. So other than an escrow (and once again, references to online or something else you might have had experience with in Greece would be appreciated) , what else could one do?

I hope someone who has gone thru this, particularly with UK part III registered boats (which is not a proof of ownership or that the boat is free of liens etc) in Greece in particular, can share their experience and ideas

What is the seller's issue with using an escrow company? Are you asking them to pay for the service?

If you aren't asking them to pay for the service and they don't have a good reason, that would be a big red flag.

Pending a big cost difference, letting them suggest an alternative escrow service would seem an acceptable option.

Once you wire the money, there is no easy way to force them to give it back if it turns out to be a scam.

I understand they may have concern with signing over the boat to you before getting the money as they would then face the hassle of repossessing it if they don't get paid but that's the whole point of the escrow service. It's an independent agency to ensure the deal goes thru correctly and no one scams anyone.

Getting a buyer's broker is a red herring in the discussion. Unless they offer to do it for far less than the typical commission, they are just milking you for money since 95% of the work is done.

[crankysailor]

Originally Posted by valhalla360

What is the seller's issue with using an escrow company? Are you asking them to pay for the service?

If you aren't asking them to pay for the service and they don't have a good reason, that would be a big red flag.

Pending a big cost difference, letting them suggest an alternative escrow service would seem an acceptable option.

Yes my thoughts exactly. I am not sure why they suggested that. But I think I would insist on that. Fees are actually very small depending on the service. About 100€ for transpact.com .. escrow.com wants closer to 500€ .. a minimal fraction of a brokers fee.

I would be willing to do the direct to account transfer if they agreed to sign everything and allow me to take possession of the boat before I push the "transfer" button. But I would think the escrow is actually safer for them than this.. we'll see.

It might be that they are not familiar with those services and are a bit scared if it will work etc.. I myself would love to hear more references from these transpact folks. They do look legit though.

[boatman61]

There's been a lot of scams in the UK.. could just be they are as scared as you are of getting shafted.
At euro 500 you could get a return flight to the UK and have change for a couple of nights in a hotel..
Whoa.!!! just had a tremor.. settee wobbled for a minute.. hope the dam upriver holds.

[Dave22q]

Something stinks, WALK AWAY. Insistence on a direct deposit should be a red flag. Using a lawyer or escrow agent should never be a problem for a legitimate seller.