Delivery Crew Pays?

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by Wannabe-007

Apparently, you should pay for thier food & drink too because if you oblige them to do so would be illegal!
I stand corrected, and will add that to my list of reasons to limit any sailing in the land of the long white litigator.
I find it hard to fathom people being fined for this kind of thing, but there is plenty I don't understand about American culture, so i'll just let that be.

Its a law designed to stop illegal profiteering.
In my home country, its now illegal now to spank your kids... its another one of those laws that is designed to stop a certain kind of abuse, but if it were strictly enforced, you'd be locking up half the populace.


For the sake of clarity, I would not condone the intoxification of the skipper... the bottles in my example were clearly to be consumed at anchor, on the beach, and by non-essential crew while underway


Incidentally, how does this lovely law of yours work for groups chartering? If I charter a boat, instead of owning one, and the boys and I share the costs... am I still on the hook? It would be a condition of carriage, so... ?

I get the feeling that you are scoping out the loopholes with a view to freelance charter in a variety of locations.. it is officially frowned on from above.. and if your prosecuted for it the consequence's can be fairly severe..
However.. the reality is.. locally the attitude can often be more realistic.. 'You are bringing spenders to my town and people.. Welcome..'
I know a few who 'Play the Game'.. and blind eye's are turned because no one takes the piss.. no one gets greedy and cocky..
like one Twat in Mallorca... started of quietly enough.. a house and sailboat locally.. started chartering the boat to friends from the 'Continent'.. no problems.. a year later another boat.. still alls cool.. the Guardia still treat him well and respectfully.. he's popular in all his favourite bars and restaurants.. gets drinks bought him.. bills can be paid monthly etc.. everyone loves him.. his customers came from oversea's.. everything was on the net.. nothing local.
Then one more boats appears in his 'Fleet' and a little kiosk on the jetty touting day trips for the 'Tourist's..' if his boats were not busy.. they were available..
Last I heard he'd lost his boats and was fighting to keep the house..
Never steal food out of someone else's Rice Bowl.. its a courtesy in much of the world..

[captainjim47]

from this thread, a couple of things:

countries with minimal boating laws may be making it easier for local scammers to seize your boat. 'freighter captain' by max hardburger is a little old but a good read.

the idea that asking for guests to share in fuel cost, food, etc. constituted a commercial venture is ancient history, as in decades. the coast guard got away from that concept a long time ago. if you advertise for charters, well then, you're just stupid.

L.O. from the Jones Act: if the master and crew are in a joint venture, that is they share the control of the project and share the rewards, the employer-employee relationship does not exist and these provisions of the Jones Act will not apply. Also, it does not apply to volunteer, unpaid crew members on yachts. However, paid crew members on pleasure yacht still are covered. BTW: if you allow crew to return to the boat drunk and they injure themselves doing so, you are liable.

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by boatman61

I get the feeling that you are scoping out the loopholes with a view to freelance charter in a variety of locations.. it is officially frowned on from above.. and if your prosecuted for it the consequence's can be fairly severe..
However.. the reality is.. locally the attitude can often be more realistic.. 'You are bringing spenders to my town and people.. Welcome..'
I know a few who 'Play the Game'.. and blind eye's are turned because no one takes the piss.. no one gets greedy and cocky..
like one Twat in Mallorca... started of quietly enough.. a house and sailboat locally.. started chartering the boat to friends from the 'Continent'.. no problems.. a year later another boat.. still alls cool.. the Guardia still treat him well and respectfully.. he's popular in all his favourite bars and restaurants.. gets drinks bought him.. bills can be paid monthly etc.. everyone loves him.. his customers came from oversea's.. everything was on the net.. nothing local.
Then one more boats appears in his 'Fleet' and a little kiosk on the jetty touting day trips for the 'Tourist's..' if his boats were not busy.. they were available..
Last I heard he'd lost his boats and was fighting to keep the house..
Never steal food out of someone else's Rice Bowl.. its a courtesy in much of the world..

Phil, as usual, you are a paragon of wisdom. UKIP need you

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

Phil, as usual, you are a paragon of wisdom. UKIP need you

The Media would have a field day unearthing past transgressions.. Though come to think of it..!! it might scare some more of the St8 but dumb Tories back to the Conservative Party...

Hmmm.. worth a thought.. anything for Queen and Country..

[Island Time O25]

Here is a question to those more familiar with the Admiralty law than an average CF member.

A friend of a friend for the past few years had been doing this both in the Med and in the Caribbean. He gets a commitment from 3 or 4 couples to split the costs of a charter cat for 7 to 10 days. Basically the total of their shares covers the charter's cost, food, fuel, etc. with often enough left to cover this guy's and his g/f's tickets to the charter place (but not always). He gets these people either through a grapevine or old charterers coming back or some such. No official advertisements anywhere, etc. Most of these charterers are non-sailors though sometimes some are. This guy more or less is their unofficial skipper. They normally don't do any night sails, unless necessitated by weather or local conditions, just the island hopping day sails and such, the usual charter week or two stuff.

I do not know if the guy has any official qualification docs such as 6-pack license, etc. I'd assume not as he's not a sailor by either profession or trade. Nor do I know if he has any ASA creds since I've heard him boast that one can charter without these if one knows from whom to charter. I do not personally know his level of sailing proficiency but so far over some years that he's been doing this he's been relatively fine, other than a grounding or two or some such.

But either way, my obvious question is - does he qualify in these situations as a skipper and his fellow charterers as passengers or is he just another passenger/crew(?) albeit "first among equals" but not participating monetarily in the splitting of charter costs. And other than contract with the charter company can a vessel officially be crewed "skipperless"?

Parenthetically - both he and his charterers feel that by organizing these incl. getting everyone together, dealing with the boat charter companies, logistics, managing provisions, skippering, etc. he "deserves" to not pay his share of the total charter expenses.

[carstenb]

Originally Posted by Island Time O25

Here is a question to those more familiar with the Admiralty law than an average CF member.

A friend of a friend for the past few years had been doing this both in the Med and in the Caribbean. He gets a commitment from 3 or 4 couples to split the costs of a charter cat for 7 to 10 days. Basically the total of their shares covers the charter's cost, food, fuel, etc. with often enough left to cover this guy's and his g/f's tickets to the charter place (but not always). He gets these people either through a grapevine or old charterers coming back or some such. No official advertisements anywhere, etc. Most of these charterers are non-sailors though sometimes some are. This guy more or less is their unofficial skipper. They normally don't do any night sails, unless necessitated by weather or local conditions, just the island hopping day sails and such, the usual charter week or two stuff.

I do not know if the guy has any official qualification docs such as 6-pack license, etc. I'd assume not as he's not a sailor by either profession or trade. Nor do I know if he has any ASA creds since I've heard him boast that one can charter without these if one knows from whom to charter. I do not personally know his level of sailing proficiency but so far over some years that he's been doing this he's been relatively fine, other than a grounding or two or some such.

But either way, my obvious question is - does he qualify in these situations as a skipper and his fellow charterers as passengers or is he just another passenger/crew(?) albeit "first among equals" but not participating monetarily in the splitting of charter costs. And other than contract with the charter company can a vessel officially be crewed "skipperless"?

Parenthetically - both he and his charterers feel that by organizing these incl. getting everyone together, dealing with the boat charter companies, logistics, managing provisions, skippering, etc. he "deserves" to not pay his share of the total charter expenses.

Doubt if Admiralty law is going to cover this, although local laws certainly will. Generally, if a group of people get together and charter a boat for their own pleasure, that is their business and no one cares, including the law.

This is different. He is actually running a business, albeit on the QT. Probabl nothing will happen unless one of his "guests" gets injured and decides to sue .

The guest is going to claim that he bought passage with a skipper and thereby a legal verbal contract was instituted, making your friend liable. As a side issue, he can end up in trouble with the local IRS for not paying taxes and he can also end up with crinimal law problems if the country he is chartering requires a skippers license.

Personally I wouldn't do this - way too much chance of getting into serious trouble .

[Island Time O25]

Originally Posted by carstenb

Doubt if Admiralty law is going to cover this, although local laws certainly will. Generally, if a group of people get together and charter a boat for their own pleasure, that is their business and no one cares, including the law.

This is different. He is actually running a business, albeit on the QT. Probabl nothing will happen unless one of his "guests" gets injured and decides to sue .

The guest is going to claim that he bought passage with a skipper and thereby a legal verbal contract was instituted, making your friend liable. As a side issue, he can end up in trouble with the local IRS for not paying taxes and he can also end up with crinimal law problems if the country he is chartering requires a skippers license.

Personally I wouldn't do this - way too much chance of getting into serious trouble .

I don't get it how you reasoned that he's running a business. He does not receive any money directly and let's say his fellow charterers pitch in and voluntarily get him a ticket as a present (and that's may be stretch as IMO he uses his ff miles for the tickets). I would also assume that his total benefit, i.e. his free share in the charter comes out to say no more than $1,000-1,200 per trip including the airfare. And as much for his g/f but their not married so the benefits are not pooled in one tax liability. I know because I was offered a space for 1 on one such charter for $750 incl. food and other incidentals but I declined as I don't like to be in the company of strangers in tight quarters for a whole week.

PS What is QT?

[soverel]

http://www.irs.gov/uac/Taxable-or-No...le-Income%3F-1



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[carstenb]

Originally Posted by Island Time O25

I don't get it how you reasoned that he's running a business. He does not receive any money directly and let's say his fellow charterers pitch in and voluntarily get him a ticket as a present (and that's may be stretch as IMO he uses his ff miles for the tickets). I would also assume that his total benefit, i.e. his free share in the charter comes out to say no more than $1,000-1,200 per trip including the airfare. And as much for his g/f but their not married so the benefits are not pooled in one tax liability. I know because I was offered a space for 1 on one such charter for $750 incl. food and other incidentals but I declined as I don't like to be in the company of strangers in tight quarters for a whole week.

PS What is QT?

QT = quietly (no one knows). The real problems occurs if one of his guests gets mad or injured - then everything comes out in the open.

[Varlan]

If you solicit a crew you pay, if they volunteer you don't, if you want a profit get a license.

[hellosailor]

"He does not receive any money directly "
Twenty? Thirty? years ago the "tax freedom" crazies were saying you should BARTER for everything because then, heck, there was just a trade and no cash and no income and nothing to be taxed or reported. Nuh-uh. The IRS said that any "gain" or "benefit" you made was still income, and they came out with a new tax form just so you can report barter income and pay proper taxes on it.
The trip organizer is receiving regular GAIN in the form of his own costs being picked up by others. That's barter income, and if the IRS finds out his game, they'll start with an audit--which can go back over ten years once they say this is intentional tax fraud--plus penalties and interest. And his operating a business (regular business activity, not just incidental to something else) without business licenses in multiple jurisdictions could leave him wishing he'd never heard of a "boat".
Can he get away with it? Sure, I know someone who didn't file or pay income taxes for 25 years. But sooner or later, he's going to retire, and show zero income for zero social security as well. Hmmm....


Now, if I organize the annual ski trip on a bus for my knitting circle, the charter company usually will comp me for the ride and the lift tickets. The IRS could care less about that. But hook up with a travel agent and make it a cruise liner and do it every month? Yeah, the tolerance won't be the same.

[Varlan]

Originally Posted by hellosailor

"He does not receive any money directly "
Twenty? Thirty? years ago the "tax freedom" crazies were saying you should BARTER for everything because then, heck, there was just a trade and no cash and no income and nothing to be taxed or reported. Nuh-uh. The IRS said that any "gain" or "benefit" you made was still income, and they came out with a new tax form just so you can report barter income and pay proper taxes on it.
The trip organizer is receiving regular GAIN in the form of his own costs being picked up by others. That's barter income, and if the IRS finds out his game, they'll start with an audit--which can go back over ten years once they say this is intentional tax fraud--plus penalties and interest. And his operating a business (regular business activity, not just incidental to something else) without business licenses in multiple jurisdictions could leave him wishing he'd never heard of a "boat".
Can he get away with it? Sure, I know someone who didn't file or pay income taxes for 25 years. But sooner or later, he's going to retire, and show zero income for zero social security as well. Hmmm....

I see the IRS is catching up with the preper community, and by default the cruising community as well

[Delancey]

QT = Quiet Time. "On the QT" same as "On the down low" nowadays, refers to an old gossip magazine.

[hellosailor]

"on the down low" actually had some low-income (dare we say gang banger?) explicitly sexual connotations to it when the phrase starting going around, so QT remains a more specific phrase. fwiw.