Broker Closing Costs

[hellosailor]

"Brokers don't make those kind of "mistakes"."
You mean, a business that relies on percents and fees and commissions to make their living, really would have any idea of what percent to charge off what transaction?
Or, they all charge ten percent because that's all the math ("move the decimal point over") they know how to do?

I'd invite the tax men to look over the books. If it was a mistake (hey, the bookkeeper could have a drug problem) that's one thing. If they find a pattern, ain't gonna be pretty, but treble (triple) damages are the normal award for fraud and that beats debating apologies. Not to mention, protecting fellow rubes. Ergh, sailors.

[skipmac]

Originally Posted by The Blue Heron

Brokers are worse than Used Car Salesmen.. way worse

Come on, give me a break. That is no more correct or true than saying all power boaters are rude, arrogant twits that fly around leaving a giant wake and all sail boaters are lazy, drunken bums.

I was a broker and knew plenty that were honest, knowledgeable and wanted to help a buyer find a good deal and the right boat for their needs and budget. Sure I knew some that were crooks but to denigrate the whole profession is BS.

[The Blue Heron]

Skipmac,
I can only speak from my experiance and that of a buddy who used a separate broker but formed the same low opinion of them. I WILL denigrate my broker. He failed in his due diligence as my representative and cost me several thousands of dollars in repairs that SHOULD have been executed as part of his contract.

It only takes one and the one I had has set my opinion of Brokers. Quite frankly the "profession" is not needed in a boat transaction. Two parties can come to terms quite easily without the useless presence of a broker.

[S/V Illusion]

One generality that I think is true of brokers is that they do not earn their commission. My experience as a seller is that the only thing they do is sit waiting for the phone to ring. I have never seen a proactive broker representing sellers. The commission should be considered larceny for what they do.

[Factor]

Originally Posted by The Blue Heron

Skipmac,
I can only speak from my experiance and that of a buddy who used a separate broker but formed the same low opinion of them. I WILL denigrate my broker. He failed in his due diligence as my representative and cost me several thousands of dollars in repairs that SHOULD have been executed as part of his contract.

It only takes one and the one I had has set my opinion of Brokers. Quite frankly the "profession" is not needed in a boat transaction. Two parties can come to terms quite easily without the useless presence of a broker.

Ah - anecdotal evidence - its a wonderful thing. Its interesting but useless, totally, for the creation of or validation of, any hypothesis. And with all due respect, sounds like you had the due diligence failure.

The expression anecdotal evidence refers to evidence from anecdotes. Because of the small sample, there is a larger chance that it may be true but unreliable due to cherry-picked or otherwise non-representative samples of typical cases. Anecdotal evidence is considered dubious support of a claim; it is accepted only in lieu of more solid evidence. This is true regardless of the veracity of individual claims.The term is often used in contrast to scientific evidence, such as evidence-based medicine, which are types of formal accounts. Some anecdotal evidence does not qualify as scientific evidence because its nature prevents it from being investigated using the scientific method. Misuse of anecdotal evidence is a logical fallacy and is sometimes informally referred to as the "person who" fallacy ("I know a person who..."; "I know of a case where..." etc. Compare with hasty generalization). Anecdotal evidence is not necessarily representative of a "typical" experience; statistical evidence can more accurately determine how typical something is.

[Paul L]

Need a larger sample size? How many of the thousands of boats listed on YachtWorld are accurately described? These descriptions come from brokers who in many cases have a loose relationship with the truth. Boat brokers have earned their reputation the old fashion way.

[boatpoker]

Originally Posted by Paul L

Need a larger sample size? How many of the thousands of boats listed on YachtWorld are accurately described? These descriptions come from brokers who in many cases have a loose relationship with the truth. Boat brokers have earned their reputation the old fashion way.

I work on deals involving the same 20 - 25 brokers all the time and over the years have dealt with a few hundred. My opinion......

10% of them should be taken out behind the barn and shot.

10% of them are excellent and routinely go above and beyond for their clients.

80% of them are average guys trying to make a living.

Come to think of it I bet those percentages hold true for plumbers, dentists, marine surveyors and lawyers ...... well maybe we should invert the numbers for lawyers

[skipmac]

Originally Posted by The Blue Heron

Skipmac,
I can only speak from my experiance and that of a buddy who used a separate broker but formed the same low opinion of them. I WILL denigrate my broker. He failed in his due diligence as my representative and cost me several thousands of dollars in repairs that SHOULD have been executed as part of his contract.

I said specifically that I knew brokers that were crooked. To be more specific, I knew brokers that were lying, cheating, dishonest scumbags. To me that is worse what you describe which sounds more like lazy or incompetent.

I am sorry you had a bad experience and completely support your right to severely criticize that broker. I will further say that your experience is far from unique and far too many people have the same or worse. I saw the industry from the inside and do not argue at all with your opinion but not when you apply it to the whole group. That is no more correct or valid than if I made the statement that power boaters are arrogant, opinionated asses. May be true for a minority but I'm certain you would object to such a blanket statement about power boaters as I do about your blanket statement about brokers.

Originally Posted by The Blue Heron

It only takes one and the one I had has set my opinion of Brokers. Quite frankly the "profession" is not needed in a boat transaction. Two parties can come to terms quite easily without the useless presence of a broker.

I am also sorry that you choose to judge an entire profession by the actions of a very few, or in your experience, one. Again, I can tell you about the time a power boater came flying by my marina in a no wake zone that caused about $60,000 in damage to the boats docked there. So from that one experience should I decide that all power boaters are rude and inconsiderate?

And of course two parties can come to an agreement and buy a boat without a broker. I bought my current boat directly from the owner without the need for a broker. But for some people, most often owners/sellers a broker can provide a valuable service. Many people own boats docked in a different state or even different country from where they reside. Flying back and forth every time a potential buyer wants to kick the tires would be impractically expensive so in this case the services of a broker would more than repay the commission paid by the seller. And I can say in my experience, at least when I was in the business, buyers most often got better deals buying from brokers. Frequently the boats for sale by owner were overpriced or not really for sale. Not always but it was common.

So feel free to denigrate your broker as much as you like although I do have to ask why you didn't catch the problems in the survey. It is the buyers responsibility to get a good survey on a boat. Whatever, I know plenty of brokers that are honest, responsible and hardworking. Mostly boaters that are trying to make a living doing something they love. Talk down about your broker all you like but when you imply all brokers are the same you are wrong.

[The Blue Heron]

Factor, what "Anectdotal" evidence? Mine was factual fiscal and costly. You have taken a pot shot and missed with your ignorant comment. My deal involved a boat the Broker was listed as both selling agent and buyers broker. I identified a conflict of interest VERY early in the negotiations and pointed it out. The repairs on my boat were negotiated in good faith on my part from 300 miles away and my broker had a fiscal duty to ensure the repairs were complete and satisfactory. They were NOT. of course I found out when I had to haul my boat out for another matter that was also the brokers responsibility. So before you place a blind bet on the track, you would do well to take a walk through the paddocks and see what your betting on.. get my meaning?

I have been pretty COC compliant by not naming names...

[hellosailor]

Hey, skip!
"To be more specific, I knew brokers that were lying, cheating, dishonest scumbags. " On behalf of the Trojan Corporation I must protest your defamatory comparison of our products to boat brokers and ask you to cease and desist from comparing our products to boat brokers, even to 10% of boat brokers, in any such way except to say that everyone should have and use them. <WEG>

boatpoker-
"10% of them should be taken out behind the barn and shot." You must be one a them Liberals who doesn't know how much a bullet costs. Please, use a lead-free ecologically and politically correct sporting good, such as a golf club or baseball bat, and let's leave guns out of this. If bats and clubs are good enough for baby seals, they should be suitable for boat brokers as well.

[The Blue Heron]

Skipmac,
after some thought, you are correct in that not all Brokers are Used Car Salesmen, some are New Car Salesmen. Perhaps it is unfair to paint all Brokers with the same brush. I will concede that point and will apologize to you as I feel it is due.

As for my opinion of Brokers as a whole, I maintain my opinion based on my personal experience, and that of my good friend. I also would see that supporting evidence is abundant and I doubt we would want to place a poll here, because Brokers would poll behind Congress.

are there good ones? Certainly. Are they on the whole ethical? I doubt it. Not when it comes to putting money in the pocket.

As for my survey.. The issues with the Broker were as a result of the finding of the survey and the Broker's lack of due diligence and ensuring the arrangement was satisfactory to all parties. From the showing to the offer to the closing it was a pain in the ass and I had to cajole and prod the entire way except when it came to escrow and then BLAM! Broker was Johnny on the spot. In fact, I hold the seller in no ill regard and we email often about answering any questions I have about the boat. The Broker on the other hand used bush league crap with me when he had no cause.. he let greed be his motivator and lost a great opportunity for his business to get exposure in a positive light. Instead he went for the easy money..

[downunder]

never, never get between a salesman and his/her commission. LOL

[avb3]

Originally Posted by hellosailor

Hey, skip!
"To be more specific, I knew brokers that were lying, cheating, dishonest scumbags. " On behalf of the Trojan Corporation I must protest your defamatory comparison of our products to boat brokers and ask you to cease and desist from comparing our products to boat brokers, even to 10% of boat brokers, in any such way except to say that everyone should have and use them. <WEG>

boatpoker-
"10% of them should be taken out behind the barn and shot." You must be one a them Liberals who doesn't know how much a bullet costs. Please, use a lead-free ecologically and politically correct sporting good, such as a golf club or baseball bat, and let's leave guns out of this. If bats and clubs are good enough for baby seals, they should be suitable for boat brokers as well.

As with any occupation, the proper tool is required to do the job. If your going to replicate a sealers hakapik, this is what is used to ensure a humane dispatch, not something crude like a bat or club.

Quote:

Secondly, the hakapik has been proven a humane tool by the Canadian Medical Veterinary Association through a study in 2002. While it may not look as humane as a firearm, it can be argued that the hakapik surpasses the firearm in humaneness when hunting seals.

Now, that being said, should those brokers be considered animals? I mean, they live to seal the deal.

[Paul L]

Originally Posted by boatpoker

I work on deals involving the same 20 - 25 brokers all the time and over the years have dealt with a few hundred. My opinion......

10% of them should be taken out behind the barn and shot.

10% of them are excellent and routinely go above and beyond for their clients.

80% of them are average guys trying to make a living.

Come to think of it I bet those percentages hold true for plumbers, dentists, marine surveyors and lawyers ...... well maybe we should invert the numbers for lawyers

So using your percentages, it seems like 10% of the brokers will fairly represent their customer and the boat. 90% will focus on their own gain before the customers. Those numbers are worse than I would have claimed.

[skipmac]

Originally Posted by Paul L

Need a larger sample size? How many of the thousands of boats listed on YachtWorld are accurately described? These descriptions come from brokers who in many cases have a loose relationship with the truth. Boat brokers have earned their reputation the old fashion way.

And you know this because you have personally examined thousands of these boats to verify the descriptions are false?

NOTE: I am not saying that the descriptions are false or true, just pointing out that you are saying this as a statement of fact when the statement is entirely unsubstantiated.