Warning - DOCUMENT YOUR BOAT! and request for advice

[Pelagic]

Yes but is not the burden of proof on the part of the other guy claiming it is his boat?

[FlyMeAway]

Originally Posted by Pelagic

Yes but is not the burden of proof on the part of the other guy claiming it is his boat?

Not IMHO if you read the facts. DOL ****ed up and changed the registration without the right documentation. Registration certification creates a presumption of ownership. Burden is on the OP to show such presumption is false.

[xymotic]

Originally Posted by SeattleSailNPow

Yes, I believe documentation would provide a layer of protection - even if not perfect. To put a lien is not the same as getting the registration with no legal process whatsoever, which is what this guy did. The DOL (dept. of licensing) gave him the registration based on vapor - totally illegitimate "lien" that went through no legal process other than being recorded at the recorders office, and you can "record" ANYTHING

I don't believe the USCG would give people's boat's away like that

?!! If anyone thinks otherwise, please advise! Does the USCG allow for bogus liens which are not even sent to the person the bogus lien is against and then hand over title?

Of course changing marinas to get away from a criminal is always possible - but there are very few liveaboard marinas out here and the state is cutting the allowable number of slips. There are none as nice or convenient as this one, where my friends are too. Everyone in the marina wants the guy gone.

To answer your question, yes a person could put a lein with the USCG very easily, but to actually transfer would take a court order or at least a bunch of signed (forged) paperwork. But again one more layer...

[xymotic]

Have you talked to an actual supervisor at DOL in Olympia? I'm surprised the D.O.L. would issue registration based on a lein. A forged note or something I could see but a lein? If you can get DOL to reverse the reg that would surely help.

[SeattleSailNPow]

Originally Posted by xymotic

Have you talked to an actual supervisor at DOL in Olympia? I'm surprised the D.O.L. would issue registration based on a lein. A forged note or something I could see but a lein? If you can get DOL to reverse the reg that would surely help.

He didn't even have a legit lien - it was totally bogus paperwork with ZERO due process. He typed up a letter, put his bogus company "seal" on it to make it look official, and, as the original post all explains - VIOLA! they gave him my registration.

Legal fees so far astronomical - jerkwad has his assets hidden

!!I appreciate all of your input - I am not necessarily going to put all info out here as I do not want to tip him off.

[FlyMeAway]

Originally Posted by SeattleSailNPow

He didn't even have a legit lien - it was totally bogus paperwork with ZERO due process. He typed up a letter, put his bogus company "seal" on it to make it look official, and, as the original post all explains - VIOLA! they gave him my registration.

Legal fees so far astronomical - jerkwad has his assets hidden

!!I appreciate all of your input - I am not necessarily going to put all info out here as I do not want to tip him off.

The legal fees aren't "astronomical" until they cost more than your boat. Remember, that's what you have to lose here. Even if he has assets hidden you can do things like garnish wages. If you really CAN get legal fees on this you might get a lawyer to work partially on contingency of those fees. If your lawyer hasn't discussed this with you, bring it up. If he still says no, start looking for another lawyer.

While it is illegal to use threat of prosecution as a means of resolving a civil matter, in practice there's something of a grey line that your lawyer (and the county PA) can help you with.

You're confusing the meaning of due process -- that's ok, typical non-lawyer mistake

[xymotic]

Originally Posted by SeattleSailNPow

He didn't even have a legit lien - it was totally bogus paperwork with ZERO due process. He typed up a letter, put his bogus company "seal" on it to make it look official, and, as the original post all explains - VIOLA! they gave him my registration.

Legal fees so far astronomical - jerkwad has his assets hidden

!!I appreciate all of your input - I am not necessarily going to put all info out here as I do not want to tip him off.

Yeah, I get that & it does seem strange, I think DOL made me notarize the damned registration when I bought my boat, which is why I'd ask someone IN OLYMPIA about the process.

[growngfree]

Looks to me like the DOL has some liability here as well. Take in the REAL paperwork and wave your arms around. Talk to the supervisor.

I totally agree with moving yourself and boat out of harms way. May have to get friends to move the boat for you as you don't want to violate a court order but in a big area like Seattle it has to be hard to figure out where a boat has gone. Keep paying for your slip and you can come back to it...right?

Not legal advice but counseling which I am qualified for: Avoid face to face with this person at all costs. If for some reason you have to actually speak with him be sure another person is with you to corroborate your account of the encounter since he is the Prince of Lies. No that title is taken. Also you cannot make any agreement with him verbal or written. Agreements only work between entities that enjoy mutual trust at some level. For me no trust, no contract.

RE CG scam artist like this might not relish the exposure of tackling the CG, plus you can be on record CG NOW as you send your valid bill of sale to them for documentation. Doing the doc work is easy. It's all online. And its cheap. Doesn't get one out of state registration in most states but it has more stature everywhere.

[westsail374]

Originally Posted by rebel heart

Yeah, kill a guy over a boat.

If the situation became one in which force were used, it would doubtless be due to the justified physical fear the OP feels from the person invading his floating home. This guy sounds like a crazy with apparently deadly skills and weapons of his own.

Not too different from the attacking pirates scenarios discussed from time to time here.

[tomfl]

Originally Posted by FlyMeAway

SNIP
If you really CAN get legal fees on this you might get a lawyer to work partially on contingency of those fees.
SNIP

This is not uncommon with one catch. A lawyer will work on contingency only if the case is a good one.

[minaret]

Try talking to Mr. Kim. He is a local Marine Documentarian, he's so old and wizened in the ways of marine legalities that the CG uses him to answer the legal disputes they can't figure out. This guy knows everything there is to know about marine law in general and marine law in WA in particular. He is ancient but his son is an active lawyer who does marine related cases. He is very busy and specializes in large commercial docs, but if you ask real nice he may find time to talk to you and/or your lawyer about your situation, or you may get lucky and get in with his son. This guy knows absolutely everyone that matters in DOL and the CG on a first name basis. He is a grumpy old cuss and will probably act like he has no time for you, but he is also very interested in cases like this and loves to talk about it. If you can get his attention he will probably help you resolve the matter if it's possible.


Kim Marine Documentation

(206) 682-7013


If Kim has no time for you you might consult Callie Van Ness at Pacific Maritime Title. She too might be able to help you with DOL.

[FlyMeAway]

I'm curious -- how was this resolved?

[Crimea Cruiser]

Originally Posted by FlyMeAway

The legal fees aren't "astronomical" until they cost more than your boat. Remember, that's what you have to lose here. Even if he has assets hidden you can do things like garnish wages. If you really CAN get legal fees on this you might get a lawyer to work partially on contingency of those fees. If your lawyer hasn't discussed this with you, bring it up. If he still says no, start looking for another lawyer.


You're confusing the meaning of due process -- that's ok, typical non-lawyer mistake

Saying versus actual practice are two entirely different things. Legal fees are up to the discretion of the judge. One person pittance is another person's astronomical. And due process can get totally undermined in time limits, procedural necessities and nuances and legal fees. Welcome to the REAL world of the American Justice system. What is right and what is legal are two entirely different things!

[SeattleSailNPow]

Originally Posted by Pelagic

Yes but is not the burden of proof on the part of the other guy claiming it is his boat?

Actually - the DOL ASSUMES automatically that liens are valid. Read about "paper terrorism" if you want more background. The lien system is totally broken and corrupt. It favors supposed creditors to such an extent that they do not even have to notify you before the DOL will give them your boat or car. Seriously. Then it is on YOU to prove that the lien is false. It cost me $10G. Yep - I have a judgement against him, but difficult to collect.

Meanwhile, the crook gets off scott free. Yep - he could take your boat to Mexico before you even knew anything about it. I was lucky for a watchful neighbor.

[SeattleSailNPow]

Originally Posted by xymotic

Have you talked to an actual supervisor at DOL in Olympia? I'm surprised the D.O.L. would issue registration based on a lein. A forged note or something I could see but a lein? If you can get DOL to reverse the reg that would surely help.

I called and called and emailed images of the documents and on and on and they just gave me the facepalm and said, sorry, it's a civil issue and you have to get a lien release from the perp to get your boat back.