Rule 5 -- Is Single-Handing Illegal?

[conachair]

Originally Posted by danielamartindm

There is no combination of electronic devices that could possibly wake and alert every sleeping skipper to every proximate hazard every time.

No way to prove a negative, but you're wrong

Bearing in mind the bar is set lot higher for a singe hander in so many ways, tech needs to be better, risk assessment should be a lot higher and well thought out etc etc. With a few additions you could wake the dead..

My best friend - (along with the loud external seatalk alarm on the radar & opencpn watchdog into really loud speakers for ais/off course... )

[Yellowtulip]

Originally Posted by conachair

No way to prove a negative, but you're wrong



Bearing in mind the bar is set lot higher for a singe hander in so many ways, tech needs to be better, risk assessment should be a lot higher and well thought out etc etc. With a few additions you could wake the dead..



My best friend - (along with the loud external seatalk alarm on the radar & opencpn watchdog into really loud speakers for ais/off course... )

I once slept through a car crashing into the house I was asleep in. I slept through the infamous UK "hurricane" of the late 1980s. I wasn't drunk, doped or exhausted; there were no special circumstances. I'm not usually such a heavy sleeper, I was awoken recently by a child crying two rooms away.
Don't bet your life on sweeping statements.

[conachair]

Originally Posted by Yellowtulip

I once slept through a car crashing into the house I was asleep in. I slept through the infamous UK "hurricane" of the late 1980s. I wasn't drunk, doped or exhausted; there were no special circumstances. I'm not usually such a heavy sleeper, I was awoken recently by a child crying two rooms away.
Don't bet your life on sweeping statements.

Sleeping solo is nothing like sleeping in bed at home, for me & the solo sailors i know anyway - always a tiny bit still aware of sense data coming in. A good idea is to take anything read on the web of a very large pinch of salt but go and see what the real world is like. Mostly easy solo as the oceans are empty but sometimes you need to do whatever is needed, an make sure your electronics is up to the job required.

Don't bet your life on sweeping statements.

Not really any need for such reactionary statements, you risk your life every time you decide to get out of bed, all down to probabilities - imho with decent kit an a lot of forethought you can get the risks solo offshore very close to , or often better than a short handed crewed boat like so many out there.

[Randy]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

Absolutely correct.


Therefore, you should not set off on a passage without adequate crew resources to both fulfill Rule 5, and also ensure that everyone on boards gets an adequate amount of sleep.

And you are also absolutely correct![emoji6]

[Randy]

Cheechako, maybe I'm dense but your reference isn't at all what "Not under command" means.

[john61ct]

Originally Posted by Yellowtulip

Don't bet your life on sweeping statements.

We bet our lives on less accurate assumptions every day without even thinking about them.

And quite rightly so, trying to eliminate all risks, IMO takes away the best aspects of being alive.

Originally Posted by Dockhead

Single handing is illegal, but it is (wisely) tolerated, but if you get into a collision, you will be in trouble (if you survive to even care).

Yes, insert "technically" to modify that "illegal" and I completely agree.

However **in practice**. . .

Originally Posted by Olddan1943

the USCG can, will and have declared an 'unsafe voyage' requiring the ship to return to port immediately. If necessary, under an armed escort.
…
Dont doubt the powers of the USCG. They can be friendly or if necessary, make life very difficult for the owner.

Yes, absolutely true.

if everything else is shipshape as it should be, I think it vanishingly small odds that any authorities will do this based **solely** on the fact the skipper is setting off alone.

I'd be very interested to learn about a single countervailing example in recent decades.


Overbearing jurisdictions like Thailand and Indonesia enforcing AIS is a related issue, and of course they give a pass to most of their locals.

On most things I'm no libertarian, but in this one area I am.

[NevisDog]

"You should not believe everything you read on the web" - yes, so where is the definitive answer D'head promised us, from USCG and UK MoT? Never happened - why not? All these singlehanded races going on around the globe and still no word from any authoritative source, so instead we bumble around and around posting nonsense.

The rule says "at all times" - definitely not "continuous". Remember, any merchant ship will post an appropriate watch "at all times", whether at anchor, in dock, even in graving dock, so make sure you do likewise: even in your marina berth you are subject to Rule 5 and you never know when the next "Pearl Harbour" may strike. You must have a watch scanning the horizon 24/7 for those Japanese zero bombers carrying torpedoes, if you wish to comply fully with Rule 5. No exceptions guys - 24/7. But I'm sure almost every one complies fully with Rule 5, so no worries.

What a croc of sh**.

[El Pinguino]

Buy a dog......used to work for me although filtering out the seagulls was a problem...

Is it just me that thinks this thread is CFCB?

[Dooglas]

Originally Posted by TigerPaws

All of this is little more than mental masturbation because who and what agency is going to enforce Rule 5 on the high seas for a pleasure yacht?

I suppose you can think that if you want, but the US Coast Guard patrols out to 200 miles from any US territory. That is a pretty good sized piece of the Pacific Ocean in particular. In US waters, the Coast Guard boards private yachts as well as small and large commercial vessels for drug inspections, fishery inspections, and mandatory safety inspections. If they see evidence of a vessel operating without a lookout on deck or in the pilothouse, you should assume you would be cited.

[Uricanejack]

First of I do single hand my boat. For short voyages less than a day. Sometimes overnight but not over 24 hrs.
Not ileagle. I am able to comply with rule 5. Unless going to the head.

Even at 24 hours. It could easily be argued I may be impaired by fatigue. Certainly any longer, I would be.
Like I said nobody is going to bother to enforce compliance until after there is an accident.

By comparison how about if I crack a bottle of rum. Have a few drinks. Or even if me and my other crew member decide to do some damage to the bottle of rum.
While we are still awake singing Yo ho ho. We are both impaired.
Today most people would regard our drinking and sailing as unacceptable.

Were are not doing anything worse than the single handler who is having a snooze. At least we are awake. **** faced but awake.

For those who go to sleep when they should be keeping a watch. Fine and dandy to take the risk for your self.
Not ok put any one else at risk. Even if it is just the carear of some Navy or Comercial ship which is unfortunate to hit your dumb ass.

Hitting and sinking a single handler should be a free pass to both the watch keeper and free of liability for the ship and it’s owners.

Your choice to sail impaired. your risk. Something happens?. Tough.

There was an incident here in Jaun De Fuca a few years back late 90s I think.
Some Idiot was out sailing single handed in Jaun De Fuca. In Fog.
Had a colision with a Chilean Submarine.
The submarine was nice enough to pick him up.

He was whining for years about the Submarine.
They were visiting on a Navy Exercise. The Submarine claimed diplomatic immunity.
Even so it was still the idiots own fault.

As I said tough.

[Dooglas]

Originally Posted by john61ct

Yes, insert "technically" to modify that "illegal" and I completely agree.

Legal and illegal are technical terms, just as moral and immoral are not.

[Uricanejack]

Originally Posted by Dooglas

I suppose you can think that if you want, but the US Coast Guard patrols out to 200 miles from any US territory. That is a pretty good sized piece of the Pacific Ocean in particular. In US waters, the Coast Guard boards private yachts as well as small and large commercial vessels for drug inspections, fishery inspections, and mandatory safety inspections. If they see evidence of a vessel operating without a lookout on deck or in the pilothouse, you should assume you would be cited.

They might, one would hope they would.
Can’t say I’ve ever heard of it happening. Not going to hold my breath waiting for them to act.

They don’t do anything about organized single handed races which they are aware of. So citing some random sailor alone on his or her boat. Would be a bit unfair. Without making it publicly clear they will do so.
Ignorance of the law may not be a defence but unfair application might be.

[TeddyDiver]

Originally Posted by Uricanejack

First of I do single hand my boat. For short voyages less than a day. Sometimes overnight but not over 24 hrs.
Not ileagle. I am able to comply with rule 5. Unless going to the head.

Even at 24 hours. It could easily be argued I may be impaired by fatigue. Certainly any longer, I would be.
Like I said nobody is going to bother to enforce compliance until after there is an accident.

By comparison how about if I crack a bottle of rum. Have a few drinks. Or even if me and my other crew member decide to do some damage to the bottle of rum.
While we are still awake singing Yo ho ho. We are both impaired.
Today most people would regard our drinking and sailing as unacceptable.

Were are not doing anything worse than the single handler who is having a snooze. At least we are awake. **** faced but awake.

For those who go to sleep when they should be keeping a watch. Fine and dandy to take the risk for your self.
Not ok put any one else at risk. Even if it is just the carear of some Navy or Comercial ship which is unfortunate to hit your dumb ass.

Hitting and sinking a single handler should be a free pass to both the watch keeper and free of liability for the ship and it’s owners.

Your choice to sail impaired. your risk. Something happens?. Tough.

There was an incident here in Jaun De Fuca a few years back late 90s I think.
Some Idiot was out sailing single handed in Jaun De Fuca. In Fog.
Had a colision with a Chilean Submarine.
The submarine was nice enough to pick him up.

He was whining for years about the Submarine.
They were visiting on a Navy Exercise. The Submarine claimed diplomatic immunity.
Even so it was still the idiots own fault.

As I said tough.

Considering the current hit rate US navy beats singlehanders 2-0 or am I missing some bullseyes

[john61ct]

Originally Posted by Dooglas

Legal and illegal are technical terms, just as moral and immoral are not.

Technically the average US citizen commits dozens of felonies per year, without even being aware of the laws being broken.

In practice that is irrelevant in daily life, until a cop or DA decides they want to enforce one of them.

[john61ct]

Originally Posted by Dooglas

If they see evidence of a vessel operating without a lookout on deck or in the pilothouse, you should assume you would be cited.

Bollocks.

USCG is encountering thousands of single-handed boats far from shore all the time.

In and of itself, has anyone here ever heard of that **in reality** being considered a problem?