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Old 23-08-2011, 21:45   #76
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Re: Red over Red - Not Under Command (NUC) Lights

Hiyas Jackdale

I quote: There is no "night light" for sleeping sailors.

Yah, I agree, yet I used to traverse regularly between Vancouver, BC Harbour and Silva Bay, Gabriola (near Vancouver Island).
At that time, my time off was 11:30pm from work. by 1:00am I'd motor under the Lions Gate Bridge and set the Autopilot towards Vancouver Island with crew.

In all honesty, we'd both try to stay awake, but by 4:00am it was usually the searchlight from a tug towing 300 feet of logs that would wake us up....

"Thanks for the 'White Light' Guys"!

Yah there is a God out there...so far she has smiled on me (and my crew)..

Be well, even at 4:00am when you should be sawing logs, not dodging them..

Trinomite
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Old 23-08-2011, 21:48   #77
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Re: Red over Red - Not Under Command (NUC) Lights

I know that not keeping a proper watch is illegal and risky. I like the red over green thing in any case. I can't believe the number of people who seem to think it's unnecessary to know the rules and follow them. Would the person who insists that sleeping while underway is in some way quasi legal under red over red drive down the highway asleep with his flashers on to let others know that he's driving unconscious and to take evasive action?
One night last week, a boat went by with multi colored Christmas lights strung all over it. It was kind of pretty, but I'm pretty sure illegal and could be confusing to someone trying to figure out what that boat was doing.
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Old 23-08-2011, 21:49   #78
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Re: Red over Red - Not Under Command (NUC) Lights

Quote:
Originally Posted by capngeo View Post

In rebuttal to your assertion that sea anchored vessels are underway, I submit that even a vessel anchored to the bottom moves somewhat.... It that vessel underway as well? By your inference only a vessel aground would not be underway and could display an anchor light
Quote:
A vessel is anchored when its anchor touches bottom; a vessel is no longer anchored when the anchor is lifted off the bottom. A vessel dragging it anchor is underway and therefore not "anchored." A vessel fastened to its mooring is "at anchor."
Rule 30
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Old 23-08-2011, 21:57   #79
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Re: Red over Red - Not Under Command (NUC) Lights

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Originally Posted by Bash View Post
Many, many times I've had ships alter courses because I was under sail and they were under power. So be it.

Sometimes it's important to do the right thing.
I get on the radio and have a conversation. Do you see me? What is your perception of what is about to happen? Do we want to alter course? Should we go red to red, or green to green?

I tend to let the working vessels have their way.
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Old 23-08-2011, 21:59   #80
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Re: Red over Red - Not Under Command (NUC) Lights

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Originally Posted by capngeo View Post

( the fact that i was towing, CBD, and RAM seemed to be inconsequential)...
I am assuming your were showing the correct shapes / lights.

Towing, CBD and RAM are three different configurations.
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Old 23-08-2011, 22:18   #81
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Re: Red over Red - Not Under Command (NUC) Lights

I presume most sleeping single-handlers are also not making the necessary sounds during periods of reduced visibility.
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Old 23-08-2011, 22:26   #82
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Re: Red over Red - Not Under Command (NUC) Lights

Vintageray
I totally agree with you.
I did say 'in all honesty' we took turns trying to sleep 2 hours and spell each other off. It just DOES NOT work, we're not robots, we all expect 8 hours of sleep to reset the synapses in our head to feel normal.
If anyone has ever been offshore and tried to raise a Deep Sea Radio Operator on a Ship passing by......good Luck...16 is asleep as is the Operator even though they are required by International Law to keep a watch....and that also includes the Bridge...
Most Pro Mariners don't make more than $50 a month as minor crew. Most of them don't have papers and couldn't care less if they run you over.
Seems it is your job to keep out of their way??
Unless you want to get your ghost to argue the case in a Court of International Maritime Law?
Sorry, folks a few yachts get sunk by whales...most are sunk by Cargo Containers that 'just don't have their locking pin system aligned' in rough seas.
That's the facts Folks.
Tri
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Old 23-08-2011, 22:37   #83
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Re: Red over Red - Not Under Command (NUC) Lights

Trinomite

In my experience, I have been able to contact the big boys. In 2000, one of them sent an email home for us.
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Old 23-08-2011, 22:43   #84
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Re: Red over Red - Not Under Command (NUC) Lights

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bash View Post
That's the same argument the fellow makes who wants to turn on every external light on his boat makes when coming home from 4th of July fireworks, his one-and-only night excursion per year. Turn them all on, and to hell with my night vision and everybody else's night vision, I just want to survive.

Sorry, I don't sail just to survive. I want to make passages with style, and grace, and competence. I don't follow the rules blindly, and the fact is there's no rule of gross tonnage in the open ocean. Many, many times I've had ships alter courses because I was under sail and they were under power. So be it.

Sometimes it's important to do the right thing.
Are you saying that the rules are not absolute? That there maybe situations that are not specifically covered by the rules? Are you suggesting that when in doubt you would try to act logically to maximize safety at sea?

Rule 2:

Quote:
2. Responsibility

(a) Nothing in these Rules shall exonerate any vessel, or the owner, master or crew thereof, from the consequences of any neglect to comply with these Rules or of the neglect of any precaution which may be required by the ordinary practice of seamen, or by the special circumstances of the case.

(b) In construing and complying with these Rules due regard shall be had to all dangers of navigation and collision and to any special circumstances, including the limitations of the vessels involved, which may make a departure from these Rules necessary to avoid immediate danger.

[Rule 2 is sometimes referred to as the "General Prudential" rule and provides for non-conformance with stated rules in order to prevent a collision, because what is paramount is the avoiding or minimizing the damaging effects of a collision, as opposed to blindly following the rules to the letter. The overall intent is to minimize actual collision taking place rather than rule compliance in and of itself, per se.]
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Old 23-08-2011, 22:49   #85
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Re: Red over Red - Not Under Command (NUC) Lights

To me, this discussion is akin to wearing a condom…..

If everyone else out there wore a condom…. You would not have to…


If everyone else out there kept a proper watch… …. You would not have to…


Keep your CPA safe out there guys..
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Old 23-08-2011, 23:01   #86
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Re: Red over Red - Not Under Command (NUC) Lights

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Originally Posted by markpierce View Post
I presume most sleeping single-handlers are also not making the necessary sounds during periods of reduced visibility.
NUC lights would be pretty pointless during restricted visibility, and you'd better hope that there is no single hander, two up, or fully crewed vessel anywhere who would have a kip whilst underway in poor vis! but i guess somewhere somehow we'll find them!
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Old 23-08-2011, 23:06   #87
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Re: Red over Red - Not Under Command (NUC) Lights

Now combine two of the answers given by some on this forum! Imagine you are midway across the pond in your 300m VLCC. And you come across the single hander with his NUC lights on. This single hander has also decided to take the advice of some from this forum that maybe it would be better to have his anchor light on. SO HE PUTS BOTH ON. THe VLCC is then going to see the lights for a vessel aground, in 3000+metres of water, that'd scare the ***** out them and make them think about their course!!!!!!
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Old 24-08-2011, 10:31   #88
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Re: Red over Red - Not Under Command (NUC) Lights

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Right, Jack, they apportioned equal blame... but the monetary judgement was against the ship and in favor of the yacht, DESPITE his failure to stand watch.

There seems to be a mixed message here...

Jim
The monetary settlement was for damages to the ammount of $80,000. Given to the yacht owner because he was the only one to suffer damage. but the yacht probably cost double that ammount. Hence 50% share of damages 'cause niether kept lookout.
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Old 24-08-2011, 10:45   #89
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Re: Red over Red - Not Under Command (NUC) Lights

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The monetary settlement was for damages to the ammount of $80,000. Given to the yacht owner because he was the only one to suffer damage. but the yacht probably cost double that ammount. Hence 50% share of damages 'cause niether kept lookout.
From the findings

Quote:
Since United States v. Reliable Transfer Co., Inc., 421 U.S. 397, 44 L. Ed. 2d 251, 95 S. Ct. 1708 (1975), liability for damage in marine collision cases is allocated among the parties proportionately to the comparative degree of their fault. Thus I have the full mathematical sliding scale available to me. But I conclude that there is no basis to distinguish between the faults of the EXPRESS and the CAMERA. The CAMERA's failure to maintain an attentive lookout rises to the level of that of the EXPRESS; indeed, the failure to maintain any lookout at all at night constitutes a more severe degree of neglect. That is sufficient to overcome any advantage which the CAMERA might otherwise enjoy as (1) an overtaken vessel which (2) was under sail. The CAMERA's basic lookout deficiency condemns her to an equal proportion of the fault for the collision. Cf. Matter of Interstate Towing Co., supra, at 757 (district court's allocation of 20 percent fault to small pleasure craft for failure to maintain lookout reversed as insufficient share of blame for ensuing collision with tug and tow).

It follows that plaintiff will recover one-half of its provable damages, a subject to which I now turn.
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Old 24-08-2011, 12:14   #90
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Re: Red over Red - Not Under Command (NUC) Lights

FYI, Maritime law follows the General Prudential rule. If you could be expected to avoid an accident, you are somewhat at fault for the accident. Damages are awarded as a court determines each vessels percentage of blame. In the above court case, looks lilke both were at fault for not keeping a proper watch. The ship was more at fault as it failed to avoid the sailboat which had the right of way. The yacht was awarded 50% of the damages incurred by it's loss because of the right of way violation but not 100% because of its failure to maintain a watch which might of avoided the accident entirely.

As a single hander, the red over green sailboat lights would help in determining fault should I get run down. The single hander would not get a 100% award of the damages, however, as they weren't maintaining a watch. Don't know whether the court might assess lesser responsibility for running NUC red over red lights but it would at least better inform other boats of the reality of the situation.

The only time I've come close to being run down and it was damn close, we were maintaining a watch heading south well off shore out of Channel Islands, CA. The ship obviously wasn't keeping a lookout as it could have avoided us easily with only a few degree change in it's course. Of course, you could probably say I wouldn't have known about all the other close calls cause I was asleep. Still vote for the NUC lights simply because it is the least confusing to another vessel.
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