Know Thy Enemy . . .

[tallyhorob]

Originally Posted by Captain Bill

I don't see where the rules make any distiction between recreational and commercial boats engaged in fishing. There is a distiction between trawling boats and boats engaged in fishing other than trawling as they must display different shapes and lights. US inland rules seem to be the same as international. It looks to me like boats engaged in fishing are the stand-on vessel, except in a narrow channel. I doubt that off shore in FL can be considered a narrow channel.

Rule 18

(b) A sailing vessel underway shall keep out of the way of:
(i) a vessel not under command;
(ii) a vessel restricted in her ability to maneuver; and
(iii) a vessel engaged in fishing.

Rule 26

(c) A vessel engaged in fishing, other than trawling, shall exhibit:
(i) two all-round lights in a vertical line, the upper being red and the lower white, or a shape consisting of two cones with apexes together in a vertical line one above the other;
(ii) when there is outlying gear extending more than 150 meters horizontally from the vessel, an all-round white light or a cone apex upward in the direction of the gear; and
(iii) when making way through the water, in addition to the lights prescribed in this paragraph, sidelights and a sternlight.

you are correct in the above but under Rule 3 General definitions,

(d) The term "vessel engaged in fishing" means any vessel fishing with nets, lines, trawls or other fishing apparatus which restrict manoeuvrability, but does not include a vessel fishing with trolling lines or other fishing apparatus which do not restrict manoeuvrability.

[hummingway]

Here in Canada the rule applies ONLY to commercial fishing. For one thing, only commercial fishing permits allow fishing with the sorts of devices that restrict manueverability. I suspect the kites come under the category of trolling and that is quite clearly exempt. That said ...

I appreciate when someone shows a little respect when there's lots of water around and I'm obviously dragging a line. I try to be respectful of other peoples water based activities (the heck with them when they're on land ). Still there are times when you have to stand on but I can tell you monofillament around a prop sucks so it is to everyones benefit to show some courtesy (or curtsey if that's your thing ).

[oldcal46skipper]

We are sailboaters who love to fish or, are we anglers who sail?

As both types, we believe in doing unto others as we would have them do unto us.





Can't we all just get along?

Tom and Bobbie, sailing and/or fishing off Pensacola

[Khagan1227]

"(c) A vessel engaged in fishing, other than trawling, shall exhibit:
(i) two all-round lights in a vertical line, the upper being red and the lower white, or a shape consisting of two cones with apexes together in a vertical line one above the other;
"

If the vessels were flying two vertical cones, they had the right of way, if not, they weren't fishing and while I can't remember ever seeing sportfishermen display two vertical cones, I like to use the rule, "it don't matter who is wrong, if I end up swimming home"

[Captain Bill]

Originally Posted by tallyhorob

you are correct in the above but under Rule 3 General definitions,

(d) The term "vessel engaged in fishing" means any vessel fishing with nets, lines, trawls or other fishing apparatus which restrict manoeuvrability, but does not include a vessel fishing with trolling lines or other fishing apparatus which do not restrict manoeuvrability.

Absolutely correct, but the question I was addressing was whether the there was a difference between commercial and recreational vessels engaged in fishing. I see only a distiction based on the equipment being used, not on whether the vessel is a commercial or recreational boat. In many states it is legal for recreational fishermen to use commercial types of gear such as trawls though often limited in size. In other countries there may be no distiction between recreational vessels and commercial vessels engaged in fishing, or in their inland rules there may be a distiction, but under the international rules the only distiction is based on equipment, not recreational or commercial status. In the OP's examples he was clearly not in inland waters, so international rules applied. In theory at least the international rules should apply in offshore waters everywhere.

[Lodesman]

Originally Posted by hummingway

Here in Canada the rule applies ONLY to commercial fishing. For one thing, only commercial fishing permits allow fishing with the sorts of devices that restrict manueverability. I suspect the kites come under the category of trolling and that is quite clearly exempt.

There is nothing in the Canadian Colregs that makes that distinction between commercial and non-commercial fishing. The colregs do state that a vessel can only be considered a "fishing vessel" if its equipment restricts its ability to manoeuvre - in this case, the vessel is to display lights and shapes for a fishing vessel whether underway or at anchor.

[TEE]

The bottom line: Whether or not the fishing boat has the right of way is somewhat irrelevant. Everytime two boats collide, they are both blamed by the Coast Guard for the collision. There is a rule that says essentially that if somebody doesn't follow the rules, and you are going to collide with them, you have the obligaton to avoid a collision, and if you fail to do so, its your fault too. I live in Charleston, SC, and a whle back a laser sailboat participating in an annouced regatta approved by the Coast Guard was becalmed and got run down by a 200 foot tourist boat under power in the designated regatta area. The Coast Gaurd attributed part of the blame to the skipper of the laser. See Rule 2 - the lets blame everybody rule:

RULE 2
RESPONSIBILITY
(a) Nothing in these Rules shall exonerate any vessel, or the owner, master, or crew thereof, from the consequences of any neglect to comply with these Rules or of the neglect of any precaution which may be required by the ordinary practice of seamen, or by the special circumstances of the case.

(b) In construing and complying with these Rules due regard shall be had to all dangers of navigation and collision and to any special circumstances, including the limitations of the vessels involved, which may make a departure from these Rules necessary to avoid immediate danger.

[Nicholson58]

Where these guys fish I doubt they would be able to anchor. It will be too deep, and too much hassle to have to maneuver once a fish is on. They generally use a drogue of about 2 feet to control the drift and keep the bow into the wind. They are unpowered recreational craft. They are not considered engaged in fishing under the letter of the regulations. You could be a jerk or avoid them.

We have similar issues on the Great Lakes here. They troll down-riggers and planer boards and long lines and dipsey divers off the back of the boat. This lets the fishermen cover a path about 200 feet wide and up to 400 feet back. It takes a while to get this stuff out and even more to retrtieve. Some of these guys (charter skippers) were in our captain's classes. They were shocked to learn they had absolutely no right of way and were considered motor powered vessels - not engaged in fishing. Under sail, we have right of way over these guys but I avoid them like plague and always tack away or pass ahead if I can. Dipping them from behind requires a very generous distance. This is always apossible in open water but in the spring and fall the salmon run the shipping channel into Muskegon Lake and the fishing boats may line up 6-abreast at 1/2 knot both inboud and outbound and zig-zagging the channel. Some even anchor up. The CG is not very good at managing the situation. The best time to transit is right behind the cross-lake ferry as this clears the road instantly. Funny how 5 blasts followed by 5 more etc. gets their attention. I have had to cross close behind a pod of 6 to avoid collision. I know all of the registered charters went to school but the other 8 of 10 haven't a clue. Usually scream "Fishing - RIGHT OF WAY"

[hummingway]

Originally Posted by Lodesman

There is nothing in the Canadian Colregs that makes that distinction between commercial and non-commercial fishing. The colregs do state that a vessel can only be considered a "fishing vessel" if its equipment restricts its ability to manoeuvre - in this case, the vessel is to display lights and shapes for a fishing vessel whether underway or at anchor.

I'm not suggesting it's in the colregs, I'm saying the fishing regs don't allow for it. However Rule 3 does say “vessel engaged in fishing” does included one using lines when they restrict movement and the vessel isn't equiped for trolling or someother activity that doesn't restrict manueverability. If you are anchored a different set of rules apply so does that leave drift fishing with the motor off as a condition that restricts maneuverability?

[sailorboy1]

I've gotten to the point that I look at the Colregs as more use for sailboats meeting each other under sail. It seems that sailboats seem to know the rules more as they relate to other sailboats. But it still is not given they will follow the rules or are paying attention. In this I find it more important as to which direction someone may break to, not whether they are the give way.

Power boats under power and making way, real way not just trolling along, I except to give way to me if I'm sailing.

All other times I plan to just take action to not be in a positing where a mis-understanding is going to damage me. And to not get into a situtation that we are so close that if either boat makes the wrong and unexpected move that a collision occurrs.

Instead of playing the rules say game; just sail/boat in a safe manner to avoid problems. When you drive your car and the semi runs over you it doesn't matter if you had the right away!

[Lodesman]

Originally Posted by hummingway

I'm not suggesting it's in the colregs, I'm saying the fishing regs don't allow for it. However Rule 3 does say “vessel engaged in fishing” does included one using lines when they restrict movement and the vessel isn't equiped for trolling or someother activity that doesn't restrict manueverability. If you are anchored a different set of rules apply so does that leave drift fishing with the motor off as a condition that restricts maneuverability?

I've never heard or seen anything that suggests that - can you tell me where it is in the fishery regs? From what I know of the fishery regs, there are no references to anything that is covered in colregs.

Drifting is a condition that is not adequately covered in the colregs. If you have suffered a breakdown, then you are NUC, but deliberately shutting off your engine(s) and drifting is not NUC. For fishing vessels, fishing shapes and lights are used when underway or at anchor.

[hummingway]

Originally Posted by Lodesman

I've never heard or seen anything that suggests that - can you tell me where it is in the fishery regs? From what I know of the fishery regs, there are no references to anything that is covered in colregs.

Drifting is a condition that is not adequately covered in the colregs. If you have suffered a breakdown, then you are NUC, but deliberately shutting off your engine(s) and drifting is not NUC. For fishing vessels, fishing shapes and lights are used when underway or at anchor.

It doesn't say anything about Colregs. It says you can only fish with line and dipnet for finfish. Commercial fishing is done from commercial licensed vessels. Never the twain shall meet.

[bewitched]

Originally Posted by oldcal46skipper

Can't we all just get along?

Tom and Bobbie, sailing and/or fishing off Pensacola

Exactly....

Although these boats should be considered as power-driven vessels unless they are displaying day shapes to that identfy them as something else (Ram, Anchored etc). If they're obviously not moving, why get so close?

[Nicholson58]

Vessels engaged in fishing is - Hauling nets, (trawling) or tending nets or traps. It is not trolling. Spent a lot of time and money to earn our masters credentials. Recreational boats including charters, with rod and reel are not engaged in fishing. they may be a motor powered vessel or an unpowered vessel under way-not making way. If he is powered the sail has rights. If he is drifting you are to keep clear. I state again, however, you can choose to be a jerk or you can avoid them by sailing into some of the other nearby hundreds of square miles. Put yourself in the other guys boat. He just thinks you are an arrogant pain. You can even hit the key for five minutes to clear around him if its inconvenient to tack. Wave and wish them luck.

In the photo below, the sailor tried to insist he had rights under sail and also as the boat ahead being overtaken. The RAM behind did not stop at the five blast warning. In open water, the ferry is no longer a RAM but only a motor powered vessel, but any idiot who would challenge his tonnage will probably also play blidfolded in traffic. Note the manditory bow watch on the ferry. He wears an intercom. The Muskegon CG station is about 70 yards to port.

We have a very entertaining channel Lake Michigan to Muskegon Lake. Its usually spot on the nose or too close to sail out but in nice conditions it is a gentle starbord tack reach in. If its not too crowded I sometimes come in with main, spinnaker, mizzen and mizzen staysail. The dunes cause the wind to skip or totally disappear just past the CG station so dousing sail is easy. The kite has a sock and the main is electric. Mizzen takes care of itself until we can crank it in. The staysail drops into the saloon through the bimini window.

[Lodesman]

Originally Posted by hummingway

It doesn't say anything about Colregs. It says you can only fish with line and dipnet for finfish. Commercial fishing is done from commercial licensed vessels. Never the twain shall meet.

So there's nothing in the regs that would prevent a non-commercial vessel from using the described line, kite and sea-anchor. If this set-up restricts the vessel's manoeuvrability, then it would be well within its rights to show shapes/lights for a fishing vessel.

I've never seen the described set-up, but it sure appears that there is a vast difference from straight trolling - where even running several lines would not prevent a vessel from stopping, or running engines astern (as long as it doesn't pick up sternway); or turning, although a tight circle that would cause the vessel to run over its own lines might best be avoided.