Impounded boats in Mexico

[ScuzzMonkey]

Originally Posted by Stu Jackson

Very good point. Does anyone know of any production builder who placed a SECOND HIN INSIDE the boat?

Sitting on my Freedom 36 right now eyeballing the plate affixed behind the companionway ladder with the HIN on it.

[Jimbo485]

Originally Posted by Stu Jackson

Very good point. Does anyone know of any production builder who placed a SECOND HIN INSIDE the boat?

Our HIN is inside. Nothing outside. Used to be USA registered.

[senormechanico]

Originally Posted by Stu Jackson

Very good point. Does anyone know of any production builder who placed a SECOND HIN INSIDE the boat?

So far, I've found one inside my engine compartment, one on the starboard aft crossbeam and one on the main hull's transom.
Built in Denmark in 1995.

[Viking Sailor]

My understanding of the inside HIN location rule is to provide a copy of the HIN that is known only to the manufacture or importer. This way it would require a call to the manufacture or importer to get the location of the inside HIN and to then verify that the outside HIN is valid. Thus, providing a fail safe against vessel theft.

The problem with this scheme is that on older boats the manufacture or importer may be defunct and their is no one to call. On the other hand, who would want to steal a boat that is that old?

[colemj]

Our boat was built in 1998 and, according to the manufacturer, they did not put a second HIN number inside the vessel. My understanding is this is not in accordance with the law, but there you go - we have an illegal boat now?

If that second HIN number is underneath a fitting or mounted hardware, as fits the letter and intent of the regulation, how in hades are the Mexican officials deciding whether it exists or not? Do you have to remove all of your hardware as well as remove your engines (some manufacturers put the second HIN underneath engine mounts) to show it to them?

If it is intentionally hidden, how does one even find it without complete disassembly of your boat or blind luck?

Has anyone ever bought a new boat and had the manufacturer or dealer point out where the hidden HIN is? Is that info in the owner's manual?

Mark

[TacomaSailor]

As I browse the internet and look at various sites such as the Baja Haha and SECTUR I find confusing and conflicting requirements. Those of you that are so sure you have all the correct answers – how do you reconcile the conflicting documents?

SV Jedi reminds us that the rules in Mexico are written down and Stu Jackson reminds us that a little work with an internet search will resolve our questions if we would just read the rules. So I did read them!

I would like to ask those Mexican experts a couple questions based on the SECTUR online document they reference and other published SECTUR documents.

QUESTIONS:
1) Where in any SECTUR document does it require two HIN for a boat?
The SECTUR/GOB Manual of Tourist Entry (http://www.sectur.gob.mx/work/models...119/ingles.pdf) describes all steps needed to acquire a TIP and the requirements for importing a vessel. Nothing in that document specifies the requirement for two HIN.

The US attorney that was quoted cites CFR articles which are US Federal Regulations but I have never seen anything where the Mexican laws promulgate the US CFR.

2) There is nothing listed in the entire document about the requirement for vessel insurance. Does that mean that requirement is no longer in effect? The SECTUR/GOB Manual of Tourist Entry does not specifiy Proof of Insurance as a necessary document for importing a vessel.

What document requires a US vessel to have insurance in Mexico. Where is it specified? This should be an easy answer but I can’t find it.

Here is the part of the SECTUR document that is confusing me"
"It is important to indicate that once you enter the country (whether you came by sea or by land) you will be able to proceed to a marina, and obtain a form to register your vessel. Once this has been done, remind the marine operator to inform the proper Tax Office for the area where the marina is located, or the Customs office at the port of entry, that your boat is registered at the marina."

3) Is it mandatory, as shown in the SECTUR document that all visiting boats “proceed to a marina?” I have never heard of that rule.

The document says “once this has been done” (proceed to a marina) you must “inform the proper Tax Office for the area where the marina is located, or the Customs office at the port of entry, that your boat is registered at the marina.”

3) Does that mean I must register with a marina even if I anchor out? How would I do that?


The SECTUR document then lists the requirements for sailing within Mexican waters which include
- departure and arrival clearance documents
- health permits
- inspection certificate from the country of origin
- verification that no money is owed to a marina.


4) Don’t the NEW ( post 2005) regulations in Mexico allow me to sail from port to port within Mexico with only a radio call to the Port Captain? How do I get the “proper arrival and departure clearances?”

I just reviewed another SECTUR document that says “The "despachos" have been eliminated, and those responsible for the Marinas assume the obligation
to register the arrival and departure of vessel when they enter a port., without the requirement of involvement by the Harbor master or the Ministry of Transportation. This as published on April 19th 2005, where an addendum is included”

The SECTUR Manual of Tourist Entry specifies “it is optional to give verbal notice to the Harbor Master or to the Marina.” When engaged in sailing from one Mexican port to another.

5) How in the world do I ever determine if I need a Health Permit when sailing from one Mexican port to another?

6) What is that inspection certificate from the country of origin?

7) The SECTUR Manual of Tourist Entry specifies a vessel arriving from a foreign port must Present the departure dispatch from the port of origin and the crew list at the Harbor Master’s Office. How in the world do I get such a document in San Diego? I’ve sailed into Mexican ports many times from the US and no one has ever asked me for a zarpe from the US.

8) How do I prove I don't owe any money to the last marina? What if I never stay in a marina?

This is all so confusing. I used to believe that a good faith effort on my part was sufficient and the Mexican authorities would help me resolve any mistakes I made. Now – it appears that mistakes are punished.

[TacomaSailor]

Has anyone ever bought a new boat and had the manufacturer or dealer point out where the hidden HIN is? Is that info in the owner's manual?

Long discussion on the Caliber owners site about 2nd HIN and Mexico.

No one can find their 2nd HIN and Caliber is out of business.

What Now?

[SV THIRD DAY]

Originally Posted by TacomaSailor

This is all so confusing. I used to believe that a good faith effort on my part was sufficient and the Mexican authorities would help me resolve any mistakes I made. Now – it appears that mistakes are punished.

Which is why I haven't done my own taxes ever...

The Latidude 38 First Timers Guide to Mexico is a pretty good document, so that is a great place to start the search.

Then to tie into a network of hundreds of cruisers currently IN Mexico, join the Yahoo SouthBound Group. There are members in almost every port in Mexico and can give you the latest word on the situation.

If you have an SSB or Ham Rig, start checking into the various nets and find out what cruisers THERE NOW are saying, thinking and doing. No disrespect to the the folks on CF, but if you haven't been to Mexico or are not in Mexico...how in the world are these people posting advice or answering questions about Mexico? The Radio Nets are a GOLD MINE of information. There is a complete listing of the Mexican Radio nets in the Yahoo Southbound group


Generally:
Like the United States of America, Mexico is a Republic of States, and just like some US States go about enforcing Immigration, drugs, voter, and other federal laws differently based on their interpretation, the exact same thing holds true in Mexico. So just because someone in La Paz tells you one thing and you hear a different thing for Barra de Navidad they can both be correct. It seems confusing, but honestly once you get down there it is as easy as cake to figure out because all of the areas have their own local cruisers nets in the morning and the folks that have been there know the procedures for that area. Some port Capatins like in Barra want to see your smiling face to check in/out and some like La Paz, San Blas, and Topolobampo and others just want a VHF radio call. You will find out the local rules by talking to the local cruisers that are THERE today, not last season, last year or 3 years ago. Because how the different Mexican States interpret and enforcement of the Federal Laws (just like in the USA) can change from year to year and official to official. Keep in mind that this whole ordeal is not based on ANYTHING new….no new rule or procedure was sprang on the fleet one sunny morning. The TIP was needed when I first went to Mexico back in 2007 and it was the same yesterday. The problem here is NOT the rules not being known, but the bozo inspectors not knowing the rules themselves and putting boats with TIPs on the “bad cruiser list”. Some cruisers had errors in their TIP, which frankly was their fault.

To your questions, I will answer what I personally know to be true and not open my mouth on what I don’t know.:
1. Before this event, the HIN issue was never a big deal because they never checked it…so this one is up in the air at the moment.

2. Insurance. You are not required to show proof of insurance to check-in to Mexico, to get a TIP, VISA, or cruise Mexico.

4. If you anchor out, you just check in/out of the ports where the port captain wants you to in the way he wants you to do it. This goes back to talking to the local cruisers that are there NOW to get the right answer.

5. No health permit going from port to port.

That’s it for now…someone else can take another stab at it…but honestly…don’t get over panicked about this. If you tried reading the US IRS tax code you wouldn’t know what in the world was going on either, you would ask your accountant and rely on their advice.

It's really is EASY to cruise in Mexico:
Visa, TIP, Crew List, US Doc or State Registration, Passport and off you go to have a blast.

Don't let this event make you think it is more complicated than it really is.

[Celestialsailor]

Originally Posted by TacomaSailor

Has anyone ever bought a new boat and had the manufacturer or dealer point out where the hidden HIN is? Is that info in the owner's manual?

Long discussion on the Caliber owners site about 2nd HIN and Mexico.

No one can find their 2nd HIN and Caliber is out of business.

What Now?

I think most people will find the 2nd. HIN right beside where they store their dremel tool.

[CarinaPDX]

Originally Posted by Celestialsailor

I think most people will find the 2nd. HIN right beside where they store their dremel tool.

Second that!

The builder who made my hull omitted to put the HIN tape in the mold. When I went to document her the USCG required that the HIN was engraved in the transom per regs. A quick trip to an office store for an appropriate stencil, to the hardware store for the right engraving tip for the Dremel, and a few minutes on the ladder and I had a very serviceable HIN. A little matching gel coat over the top completed the job.

I would feel comfortable using a permanent marker for extra HINs below - they are going to be hidden after all. The only one that needs to know their location is the owner, and ultimately law enforcement if the boat is stolen.

Greg

[minaret]

Originally Posted by CarinaPDX

Second that!

The builder who made my hull omitted to put the HIN tape in the mold. When I went to document her the USCG required that the HIN was engraved in the transom per regs. A quick trip to an office store for an appropriate stencil, to the hardware store for the right engraving tip for the Dremel, and a few minutes on the ladder and I had a very serviceable HIN. A little matching gel coat over the top completed the job.

I would feel comfortable using a permanent marker for extra HINs below - they are going to be hidden after all. The only one that needs to know their location is the owner, and ultimately law enforcement if the boat is stolen.

Greg

You use stick on lettering and glass over it with a single boat cloth for belowdecks HINs. It's the usual method. Done many.

[CarinaPDX]

That's how I attached my official number, but it is in the (known) required position and could easily be changed if stolen. It would work for the smaller HIN but the important point is that it be hidden.

Greg

[mrlee]

Hi all...Man, I have been reading this for over 40 minutes and I read a lot of the same things repeated over and over. As a Mex/Amer living in Mex. I can give you only a little input on this as there is ONLY thing they want here...MONEY!!! When it's stated that you CANNOT get your boat unimpounded from a computer in the US...SO TRUE...Your computer cannot pay the FINES that will go into the Christmas fund(back pocket)! The more you fight these people...the more you will pay and the longer they will detain the boats release.
If they have your boat, I suggest you get to Mex. and find a local who "knows people"... Not hard to do...Then the negotations start...he will talk to the right people, and you will pay! If you find the right guy...you will pay him and it will all be ok...read between the lines!!!!!
I am Mex. but since I look and speak as a "gringo" (not really offensive) I have to pay more for everything- con or sin buen espanol...If I want to buy something, I send a Mex. friend as it will be cheaper. It's ALL about the MONEY here...
I feel bad for you guys and I hope this gives you some insight. I am on the right coast with a trailer sailer so I have no issues.
Be safe all and may God Bless...

[Celestialsailor]

Hmmmm....A certain odor to that post

[Therapy]

Originally Posted by Celestialsailor

Hmmmm....A certain odor to that post

Being there with experience?