Extended tour in the EU, Med, Schengen for Yanks?

[scimitar]

Originally Posted by hellosailor

Seems like I forgot Albania, but other than that, my cronies in the CIA seem to think I'm right about where Yugoslavia used to be.

Apologies for the size of the map, the cronies sized it generously.

I do not know did you took that map from CIA site to day, if yes, then if the rest of you are smart like those CIA "cronies" no wonder they consider Americans to be the most stupid people in the world. that map is probably from 1991 1992 but definitely before 1995.

You se, those Serbs in Croatia do not exsist any more. We done to them same what you done to Indians (or politically corrected this days, American natives) there is few left in reservations around border with Bosnia.

There is 99.9% Croats, 86% Catholics and 100% Whites living in Croatia these days.

[hellosailor]

The Italian Foreign Ministry replied in 48 hours, as below. It would seem that cruisers can either use option 5, elective residence, or the second option 4, "Religious Reasons". What the heck, make it a pilgrimage and everyone is happy and within the law, without using that pesky "residence" word.

================================

Sir:

Thank you for contacting the Office for the Relations with the Public of the Italian Ministry of Foreign Affairs.

I would like to inform you that American citizens do not need a visa when they travel to the Schengen Area (Italy included) for up to 90 days within a 180 days period for tourism, business, study or for sport competition. For all other purposes or for visits longer than 90 days, a long-stay national visa (or visa type "D") is required and must be obtained from the Embassy or Consulate of the Schengen Member State of destination before entering the country.

A long-stay national visa (or visa type "D") can be issued for one of the following purposes:

1.Adoption

2.Family Reunification

3.Medical Treatment

4.Work

• <LI style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt; tab-stops: list 36.0pt" class=MsoNormal>self-employment
  • <LI style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt; tab-stops: list 72.0pt" class=MsoNormal>self-employed professional <LI style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt; tab-stops: list 72.0pt" class=MsoNormal>business person, merchant, artisan <LI style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt; tab-stops: list 72.0pt" class=MsoNormal>holders of contracts for projects, consultancy, etc. <LI style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt; tab-stops: list 72.0pt" class=MsoNormal>sports person and athletes <LI style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt; tab-stops: list 72.0pt" class=MsoNormal>partners and managers of companies in Italy <LI style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt; tab-stops: list 72.0pt" class=MsoNormal>artists, dancers and entertainment industry personnel <LI style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt; tab-stops: list 72.0pt" class=MsoNormal>managers or highly qualified employees of companies based in Italy or with branches in Italy, or of branch offices of foreign companies headquartered in a member country of the World Trade Organisation, or managers of main offices in Italy of Italian firms of firms of another EU member <LI style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt; tab-stops: list 72.0pt" class=MsoNormal>university language assistants <LI style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt; tab-stops: list 72.0pt" class=MsoNormal>university professors and researchers intending to fill an academic position or carry out paid research activities in Italian universities or educational or research institutes
  • translators and interpreters
  <LI style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt; tab-stops: list 36.0pt" class=MsoNormal>subordinate employment
  • <LI style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt; tab-stops: list 72.0pt" class=MsoNormal>subordinate personnel <LI style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt; tab-stops: list 72.0pt" class=MsoNormal>maritime personnel <LI style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt; tab-stops: list 72.0pt" class=MsoNormal>personnel employed in supplementary maritime services <LI style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt; tab-stops: list 72.0pt" class=MsoNormal>journalists and correspondents <LI style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt; tab-stops: list 72.0pt" class=MsoNormal>sports person and athletes <LI style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt; tab-stops: list 72.0pt" class=MsoNormal>personnel of Italian diplomatic representations in Italy
  • personnel of diplomatic/technical-administrative officials of Italian diplomatic representations in Italy
  • artists, dancers and entertainment industry personnel

4.Religious Reasons

5.Elective Residence ( the applicant must provide documented and detailed warranties of wide and constant economic resources resulting from incomes of which the person concerned can give evidence of having permanent and perpetual access, such as retirement benefit or live annuity, real estate, business and trade activities or other sources and the availability of an appropriate accommodation in Italy).

6.Study

• <LI style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt; tab-stops: list 36.0pt" class=MsoNormal>application to Italian Universities <LI style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt; tab-stops: list 36.0pt" class=MsoNormal>study courses and grants <LI style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt; tab-stops: list 36.0pt" class=MsoNormal>religious novitiate/training
• technical and professional instruction beyond the level of compulsory education

7.Work Vacation (in case of Australian, Canadian and New Zealand citizens)

I would like to inform you that Italian Embassies and Consulates, with territorial jurisdiction over the place of residence of the applicant, are the only authorities entitled to issue visa to enter the Italian Republic and therefore they are responsible for ascertaining that applicants are in possession of the requisites and documents entitling them to apply for visa to Italy.
Therefore, please contact the relevant Visa Office...http://www.ambwashingtondc.esteri.it...ata_Washington

Anyway, find information on the entry of foreign nationals into Italy on the following section of the Italian Ministry of Foreign Affairs' website:
http://www.esteri.it/MAE/EN/Ministero/Servizi/Stranieri/IngressoSoggiornoInItalia/

Best regards,
Silvia De Nardo
Office for Relations with the Public

[David_Old_Jersey]

So, am I right in saying that nowadays you can only get a Schengen "Tourist / Visitors" Visa when you arrive in a Schengen Country and not instead elect for a national Tourist / Visitors Visa?........with anything longer / for other reasons (work, medical, study, retirement etc) remaining with each country.

90 days in 180 probably covers 99%+ of Tourists - perhaps have to accept that anything more and you really are a resident, and that comes at a cost $$$ everywhere in the world.

[skipmac]

Originally Posted by David_Old_Jersey

So, am I right in saying that nowadays you can only get a Schengen "Tourist / Visitors" Visa when you arrive in a Schengen Country and not instead elect for a national Tourist / Visitors Visa?........with anything longer / for other reasons (work, medical, study, retirement etc) remaining with each country.

90 days in 180 probably covers 99%+ of Tourists - perhaps have to accept that anything more and you really are a resident, and that comes at a cost $$$ everywhere in the world.

Yep, pretty much how I understand it. As long as you are from a country that is accepted under the program then you will automatically receive 90 days upon arrival in a Schengen country. To stay longer you have to apply to a specific country for a special visa for student, medical or whatever other special visas are offered.

So far it's looking like Italy has the best IE easiest to apply for, program for this.

[David_Old_Jersey]

Originally Posted by skipmac

Yep, pretty much how I understand it. As long as you are from a country that is accepted under the program then you will automatically receive 90 days upon arrival in a Schengen country. To stay longer you have to apply to a specific country for a special visa for student, medical or whatever other special visas are offered.

So far it's looking like Italy has the best IE easiest to apply for, program for this.

It's a shame that National Tourist / Visitor Visas are no longer issued - even if shorter than the 90 day Schengen......even "only" 30 days in Spain, 30 in France, 30 in Italy etc would quickly fill up a season even without going non-EU - before starting over again.......more paperwork (and likely cost!) but more flexibility.

[skipmac]

Originally Posted by hellosailor

The Italian Foreign Ministry replied in 48 hours, as below. It would seem that cruisers can either use option 5, elective residence, or the second option 4, "Religious Reasons". What the heck, make it a pilgrimage and everyone is happy and within the law, without using that pesky "residence" word.================================

Thank you for contacting the Office for the Relations with the Public of the Italian Ministry of Foreign Affairs.

I would like to inform you that American citizens do not need a visa when they travel to the Schengen Area (Italy included) for up to 90 days within a 180 days period for tourism, business, study or for sport competition. For all other purposes or for visits longer than 90 days, a long-stay national visa (or visa type "D") is required and must be obtained from the Embassy or Consulate of the Schengen Member State of destination before entering the country.

A long-stay national visa (or visa type "D") can be issued for one of the following purposes:
1.Adoption
2.Family Reunification
3.Medical Treatment
4.Work
4.Religious Reasons [
5.Elective Residence ( the applicant must provide documented and detailed warranties of wide and constant economic resources resulting from incomes of which the person concerned can give evidence of having permanent and perpetual access, such as retirement benefit or live annuity, real estate, business and trade activities or other sources and the availability of an appropriate accommodation in Italy).
6.Study
7.Work Vacation (in case of Australian, Canadian and New Zealand citizens)

I would like to inform you that Italian Embassies and Consulates, with territorial jurisdiction over the place of residence of the applicant, are the only authorities entitled to issue visa to enter the Italian Republic and therefore they are responsible for ascertaining that applicants are in possession of the requisites and documents entitling them to apply for visa to Italy.
Therefore, please contact the relevant Visa Office...Ambasciata d'Italia a Washington, Home Page

Anyway, find information on the entry of foreign nationals into Italy on the following section of the Italian Ministry of Foreign Affairs' website:
http://www.esteri.it/MAE/EN/Ministero/Servizi/Stranieri/IngressoSoggiornoInItalia/

Best regards,
Silvia De Nardo
Office for Relations with the Public

Thanks for getting this information and posting it. So now the question that I have is what are the tax implications?

Any idea if Italy may want their pound of flesh if you stay there several months or just have a long term stay visa (whatever the category) which for me would mean during that time I would be making forays into other countries a few weeks at a time.

I recall a year or so ago when the Italian economy started crashing they tried/threatened/wanted to impose a serious luxury tax on yachts, potentially any yacht that passed through the country. That resulted in a wholesale exodus of yachts to other countries so not sure if the taxes and fees were ever really enacted or if they were repealed. Regardless, this does give me concern that the Italian government could be poised to pounce on some clueless, long-stay visitor with a giant tax bill for under some obscure regulation.

[hellosailor]

David-
A "Schengen" visa is only issued for 90 days, anything longer is a national visa issued by a member state.
In a way this is very similar to the situation in the US. Except here, you cannot get a "State" visa from any of our sovereign states, you can only get a national visa from our Federal Republic.
The analogy gets twisted when you look at state-versus-superstate "residency". In Schengenland, you can be a resident within Schengenland for no more than 90 days, even if you are a resident in one of the states for a year. In the US, you can't reside in any of the states without the superstate (federal republic) visa.
I'd call the Schengen plan seriously flawed in that aspect. 90 days total stay would be fine for a small association, but as the membership has grown? Suppose I'm hiking from Iceland to Greece (I can walk on water although I try to avoid doing that in public) can I really get from here to there in 90 days?? Does that really provide any benefit to anyone, including the member states? I would think not.

skip-
You'd have to pursue the tax question with the Italians, or others. If they are requiring you to show proof of outside income, I would think that's not taxed. But an Italian govenment functionary might think otherwise. Easy enough to ask, right?
I still like the idea of applying for a religious visa instead of a residential one. Get me a mitered cap and tell 'em I'm studying for a new job opening, right? <VBG>

[skipmac]

Originally Posted by hellosailor

skip-
You'd have to pursue the tax question with the Italians, or others. If they are requiring you to show proof of outside income, I would think that's not taxed. But an Italian govenment functionary might think otherwise. Easy enough to ask, right?
I still like the idea of applying for a religious visa instead of a residential one. Get me a mitered cap and tell 'em I'm studying for a new job opening, right? <VBG>

I'm afraid I would flunk the test for the religious visa. Just don't have the qualifications. Pretty sure from their point of view I would be designated a pagan or at the very least irreverent. Think Guido Sarducci on a bad day.

Since you got such a quick response from Italy, if you don't mind I might contact the guy that replied to you to ask about tax issues. Just don't want to hijack your contact.

[hellosailor]

Hijack my contact?! But I paid for his exclusive use, he's not allowed to speak with anyone else. He's a "concierge bureaucrat" on private retainer. <VBG>

The religious visa doesn't say it has to be that popular newfangled religion so many Italians practice. Remember, before there was Romulus and Remus, Rome still had seven hills and a whole batch of gods and sacred sites. And of course, The Vatican is "in" Italy but it still isn't IN Italy, it is just surrounded by it. Not a Schengen member either.<G>

Blessing of the Fleet? Hell no, that's done by newbies. I think the older Gods are more appreciative of supplications.

Just don't tell that to the Foreign Ministry, I understand they're in tight with the new guys.

[David_Old_Jersey]

Originally Posted by hellosailor

David-
A "Schengen" visa is only issued for 90 days, anything longer is a national visa issued by a member state.

By that I am guessing you mean only a Schengen visa can now be issued (i.e. not possible to get a short term nationally issued tourist / visitors visa instead for a single country).

[hellosailor]

"By that I am guessing you mean only "
Not at all. I meant only what I said:
1- The only Schengen visa you can get will be 90 days
2- The only longer visa you can get will be a true/single national one, which won't be valid in Schengenland, but will allow you to remain in that one nation rather than leaving on the 90th day.

Other 90-day visa options aren't relevant here since the topic is Yanks visiting "Schengenland", not just one nation. Till we invade & conquer, or re-open the War of 1812...you'll have to find out how they apply rules differently, you not being a Yank. <G>

I suppose that would still leave a question, if you remained in one member state from the 90th to the 180th day, whether you still would have to leave the Schegen area for 90 days before you could re-enter it in general.

Oh, if you want to help with the invasion, PM me, we don't want to tip off the Crown before it happens. <VBG>

[skipmac]

Originally Posted by hellosailor

Hijack my contact?! But I paid for his exclusive use, he's not allowed to speak with anyone else. He's a "concierge bureaucrat" on private retainer. <VBG>

The religious visa doesn't say it has to be that popular newfangled religion so many Italians practice. Remember, before there was Romulus and Remus, Rome still had seven hills and a whole batch of gods and sacred sites. And of course, The Vatican is "in" Italy but it still isn't IN Italy, it is just surrounded by it. Not a Schengen member either.<G>

Blessing of the Fleet? Hell no, that's done by newbies. I think the older Gods are more appreciative of supplications.

Just don't tell that to the Foreign Ministry, I understand they're in tight with the new guys.

Oops. Too late. Already sent a message to the information line asking about taxes. However, as an act of penance I will share any reply that I receive, for just a small fee.

[Dsanduril]

Originally Posted by hellosailor

Other 90-day visa options aren't relevant here since the topic is Yanks visiting "Schengenland", not just one nation.

The way I interpret DoJ's question, it is relevant. He is asking if he (or a Yank) can get a 30 or 60 or 90 day visa from France (even though it is part of Schengen). Then when done in France, move on and get a 30 day visa from Italy, then a 60 day one from Spain. All are Schengen, but if you were avoiding dealing with Schengen could you string it together in this manner using country-specific short-term visas?

My understanding is no, that there are no longer any country-specific short term visas in Schengenland, but I would love to hear otherwise.

[David_Old_Jersey]

Originally Posted by Dsanduril

The way I interpret DoJ's question, it is relevant. He is asking if he (or a Yank) can get a 30 or 60 or 90 day visa from France (even though it is part of Schengen). Then when done in France, move on and get a 30 day visa from Italy, then a 60 day one from Spain. All are Schengen, but if you were avoiding dealing with Schengen could you string it together in this manner using country-specific short-term visas?

My understanding is no, that there are no longer any country-specific short term visas in Schengenland, but I would love to hear otherwise.

Yeah, that was what I was saying (or trying to!).

Actually not relevant to me - although I have a 2nd Class British passport (stamped with no right to live or work in the EU) in practice not a problem.....albeit that mostly from not wanting to work in the EU! nor to permanently reside there! - but my passport good enough to wander around at will with no visa.........am just curious (nosey?!).

[mcarling]

Originally Posted by hellosailor

since Gib is a part of the UK, I think it is exempted, as are Ireland and the UK proper. It shows Crete, south of Greece, but Crete hasn't been accepted yet and may not be accepted if they can't iron out the old Greek-Turk issues. And for simplicity, I might call the new nations north of Greece "the former Yugoslavia" with no offense meant to any of them.

I confirm that Gibraltar is outside the Schengen Area. Cyprus is also outside. Slovenia is a part of the former Yugoslavia but inside the Schengen Area.

Originally Posted by hellosailor

So...the rules for a Yank appear to be (after looking at the US DOS web site and various others) that a Yank can enter the Schengen area without a visa, and then stay for any accumulation of 90 days, not necessarily consecutive, within any period of 180 consecutive days. But once you've been in the Schengen area for those totalled 90 days, you must exit for 90 consecutive days before you can re-enter. UNLESS you have a visa.

The rule is not based on any 180 day period but rather very specific and non-intuitive 180 day periods. For someone who has not been to the Schengen Area in the previous six months, the 180 day period begins upon the first entry into the Schengen Area. The following 180 day period begins upon the first entry following the end of the previous 180 day period.

Also, there is no requirement to leave for a 90 day consecutive period. Once one has used up the 90 allowed days within a specific 180 day period, one must leave until the end of that 180 day period. That might be anywhere from 0 to 90 days depending on the circumstances.

Originally Posted by hellosailor

With a little careful planning, a coupe of longish hops, it would seem very possible to run the clock without much inconvenience at all.

It looks like a "grand tour" can still be done. Without cheating on any entry stamps.

I fully agree with this conclusion. I see no reason why an American cruiser would need a visa to tour the Med. There are many interesting places to visit outside the Schengen Area.