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Old 07-10-2013, 11:56   #136
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Originally Posted by bobofthenorth View Post

So sez you. I was simply repeating what the USCG boarding parties tell us. Given that they have implemented joint US/Canadian parties to deal with precisely the situation I referred to I'll take their word over yours if its all the same to you. But thanks for your opinion.
Nope a law may be written to exclude foreign boats. Or under the principles of comity you may be excused. But in general in territorial waters you are exposed to the complete gamut of the nations laws.

Flag covers no immunity. Your boat is not an embassy

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Old 07-10-2013, 11:56   #137
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Re: Boarded by the Coast Guard..Terminated Voyage

Give a man a uniform and he thinks he's John Waynes Nephew!
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Old 07-10-2013, 11:59   #138
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Re: Boarded by the Coast Guard..Terminated Voyage

Robin, there really are no hydrostatic release type PFDs. The ones that claim to be, are just using spring-loaded flapper valves over a conventional "aspirin tablet" release. Water pressure opens the flapper valve, and then the conventional release works, or fails, in the conventional manner. I'd call that a "hydrostatic protected" release, at best.

I chose a Crewfit vest, which uses a paper-mache wrapped springloaded needle instead. They are not prone to coming apart in a damp environment like the aspirin models, so no flapper complication is needed. On the other hand, they never applied for USCG approval so whether it is worn or not, it doesn't count for USCG inventory. (It just outperforms most that do.)

I'd say the original boarding crew was within the letter of the law, in that at least one USCG official document http://www.uscg.mil/d1/prevention/Na...nforcement.PDF online says that failure to meet the extinguisher spec alone may be grounds for termination. Not that it IS grounds for termination, but it is discretionary grounds for it. (May be, not shall be.)
But that team should still be reported to their base CO, CC'ed to the District command, and the Commandant's Office. Technically the USCG extinguisher approval is based on the weight, not performance, of the extinguishing agent, which is an obsolete and arbitrary way of measuring things. And on the corrosion resistance of the extinguisher. So if the law requires one, or two, and your vessel has FOUR that appear to be in clean working order with a sufficient amount of extinguishing agent...that's no reason to terminate a voyage based on an obsolete technicality.
Batch a gung-ho yoyo nonsense, that is.

And ditto on the vests, it sounds like everyone was confused by the PFDs. If an approved auto-inflate PFD is not being worn, it doesn't count. But that's nothing that can be held against it, as long as there are sufficient other PFDs at hand on board, as there apparently were.

And heaven help the idiot who asks me to blow a whistle, because I think I tried them all while SCUBA diving, where whistles aren't mandatory but have always been recommended as a safety item. There's no whistle in this creation that can be heard even a hundred yards upwind of the blower. Might as well use Maggie Simpson's pacifier for all the difference an approval stamp on a whistle would make.

Gung-ho yoyos. Need to be reprimanded and told to grow up.
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Old 07-10-2013, 12:00   #139
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Ok, here is the current deal with USCG regulations on wearing PFDs..... If they are marked as type I, II, or III, then they do not have to be worn to count, but if they are marked as type IV then you have to be following the restrictions on the label for them to count and many/most of the inflatable type IV's say in their label they must be worn to count.

Originally all the inflatables were considered IV, but in the past several years they have approved several models as type IIIs, and there is at least one approved as a type II - it's a mustang West Model # 7911654 | Mustag model MD3184-RD/BK.

Here is the text of the uscg regs. . . .

http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/CFR-200...5-subpartB.pdf

Note: the uscg is currently in the process of entirely reworking their life jacket typing and labeling process, so the details of this will all change at some point in the undefined future.

That is correct, and goboating is incorrect. This was tested all the way up to the queens court in NZ about 2 decades ago, when NZ tried to enforce their national safety regulations on foreign vessels. The same has been tried in chile and also thrown out. The basis for throwing these sorts of requirements out is they have been found to be in clear violation of the international IMO treaty, which most countries have signed.
I'm sorry , all that happened was Nz courts overruled a local law.

I can guarantee you the French apply their safety rules to foreign vessels and I can guarantee Ireland officials require visiting cruisers to obey the national lifejacket law.

Why cause I've direct experience of both

For example the French require you to carry registration documents , whereas British law does not. British boats have been fined in France for failure to produce documents


IMO treaties have nothing to do with it.

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Old 07-10-2013, 12:01   #140
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Originally Posted by GordMay View Post
A Coast Guard boarding officer who observes a boat being operated in an UNSAFE CONDITION, specifically defined by law or regulation, and who determines that an ESPECIALLY HAZARDOUS CONDITION exists, may direct the operator to take immediate steps to correct the condition, including returning to port.
Termination of unsafe conditions may be imposed for:

Insufficient number of CG Approved Personal Flotation Devices (PFDs)

Insufficient fire extinguishers

Overloading condition

Improper navigation light display

Fuel leakage

Fuel in bilge’s

Improper ventilation

Improper backfire flame control

Manifestly unsafe voyage

http://www.uscg.mil/d1/prevention/Na...nforcement.PDF
I suspect this applies to all vessels in national waters irrespective of flag

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Old 07-10-2013, 12:11   #141
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Re: Boarded by the Coast Guard..Terminated Voyage

I'm pretty sure it's a 2 edged sword...you have to comply with both states...your flag and whatever flag water's you are in....meaning once you eave a countries waters..you are usually subject to them...whenever you sail into another's waters, you country can't do much till you go international waters again...but the host countries rules apply.

Plus my training would differ in that any one extinguishing agent is superior to another...they all have strengths and weaknesses...the Dry Chems other than some varieties are more difficult to clean up than halogen,,, "experts" have determined that for overall performance, dry chem gives the best bang for the buck. You can disagree...but the law is the law based on more than one, or several people's opinions.
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Old 07-10-2013, 12:17   #142
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Re: Boarded by the Coast Guard..Terminated Voyage

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Originally Posted by goboatingnow View Post
Nope wrong sorry. Sail into Ireland on any flag you like and you are required to obey the lifejacket laws.

The French safety rules clearly and unambiguously apply to all craft and the French will pull you irrespective of your flag.
Nah..they only do that for UK boats
However, international rules and conventions must be obeyd when they differ from your national ones and that's it.
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Old 07-10-2013, 12:24   #143
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Nah..they only do that for UK boats
However, international rules and conventions must be obeyd when they differ from your national ones and that's it.

Croatia requires all Lesiure skippers to be certified even if there own country does not require it.

Square that

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Old 07-10-2013, 12:41   #144
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Re: Boarded by the Coast Guard..Terminated Voyage

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Originally Posted by goboatingnow View Post
Nope wrong sorry. Sail into Ireland on any flag you like and you are required to obey the lifejacket laws.
the Irish laws are for wearing them in boats of a certain size not for merely carrying them as per USA, you need to wear them in a small boat, like the tender, not necessarily so in a bigger one

Quote:
The French safety rules clearly and unambiguously apply to all craft and the French will pull you irrespective of your flag. This I know for a fact. Merely because you get away with it or an official couldn't be bothered prosecuting you is irrelevant.

Flag confers no immunity.

Dave

bolleaux, and I have been boarded many times by French officialdom (customs, CG and police) in French waters over many years . They have rules like in the USA for what you have to have on board your vessel if you are a French registered boat but they do not apply if you are a foreign registered vessel ( We of course were on a British registered vessel). You might find the occasional dumbo local official who would think differently and like here it pays never to never argue with an armed opponent, just smile and pay, but it doesn't make it either legally correct or 'normal. French boats are required to have different levels of gear depending on their distance from a safe haven, it true gallic logic however it doen't mean it has to actually work or that youeven know how to use it ( Sextant and tables being an example, required if more than 200 miles offshore, radar reflector being another but never mind if it is a useless tiny one or one mounted wrong way up, or even a folding one stowed under a bunk)
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Old 07-10-2013, 12:57   #145
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Re: Boarded by the Coast Guard..Terminated Voyage

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Originally Posted by goboatingnow View Post
Croatia requires all Lesiure skippers to be certified even if there own country does not require it.

Square that

Dave
So does New Jersey, USA....you have to produce evidence of some kind of boating safety course.
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Old 07-10-2013, 13:01   #146
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the Irish laws are for wearing them in boats of a certain size not for merely carrying them as per USA, you need to wear them in a small boat, like the tender, not necessarily so in a bigger one

It matters not. It applies to all vessels regardless of flag.

I would disagree re French. On general they apply comity. But I know for a fact the rules apply to all vessels and the law is quite specific.

Are you seriously suggesting that for example sailing a vessel from a country with no BUI law would protect me from a BUI in the US !!!

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Old 07-10-2013, 13:07   #147
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Re: Boarded by the Coast Guard..Terminated Voyage

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So does New Jersey, USA....you have to produce evidence of some kind of boating safety course.
Now that you mention it, I do seem to recall seeing a NJ driver's license with a boat endorsement on it. I wonder though, is NJ able to enforce that sort of thing on the open ocean? Or does that just apply to lakes & rivers within the state?

Thanks,
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Old 07-10-2013, 13:24   #148
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Re: Boarded by the Coast Guard..Terminated Voyage

Good thread folks. It made me get up and walk down to the boat to check stuff. Danged if my flares aren't out of date. The rest is good but I couldn't remember where the rules of the road book was...found it though. Ditto the waste disposal plan. Still says all garbage will be collected in bags and disposed of at the house of the PO. I like it.
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Old 07-10-2013, 13:38   #149
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Re: Boarded by the Coast Guard..Terminated Voyage

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Originally Posted by goboatingnow View Post
It matters not. It applies to all vessels regardless of flag.

I would disagree re French. On general they apply comity. But I know for a fact the rules apply to all vessels and the law is quite specific.

Are you seriously suggesting that for example sailing a vessel from a country with no BUI law would protect me from a BUI in the US !!!

Dave
IF you want to drive or to boat drunk you deserve all you get wherever you are ,but we are not talking about behavioral rules, rather the list of 'stuff' officialdom has decided thou must have on board to be considered safe to proceed in their back yard.

How about the many British boats who are temporarily cruising the ICW for example as part of a transatlantic circuit via the Caribbean? Are you saying they risk arrest or termination of voyage when in US waters if their lifejackets are only EU approved and not USCG, or likewise if their fire extinguishers are EU not USCG ones?

In any case in my opinion you cannot 'buy' safety it is much more a state of mind induced by experience ( which you also cannot buy) and not just experience gained in a classroom or on a boating lake in a rented boat. Bit like Drivers licences too, having one doesn't make you a safe driver as is apparent daily around these parts.

I think I will opt out of this now and thereby try not to upset any more of the local natives. Our boat here in the USA is a full USCG Federal documented one(but in my American wife's name as I cannot do it as a non US citizen albeit a 'legal alien 'permanent US resident, so we WILL comply with USCG rules simply because as owners of a US registered vessel we are obliged to do so.
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Old 07-10-2013, 13:45   #150
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IF you want to drive or to boat drunk you deserve all you get wherever you are ,but we are not talking about behavioral rules, rather the list of 'stuff' officialdom has decided thou must have on board to be considered safe to proceed in their back yard.

How about the many British boats who are temporarily cruising the ICW for example as part of a transatlantic circuit via the Caribbean? Are you saying they risk arrest or termination of voyage if their lifejackets are only EU approved and not USCG or likewise their fire extinguishers are EU not USCG ones?

In any case in my opinion you cannot 'buy' safety it is much more a state of mind induced by experience ( which you also cannot buy) and not just experience gained in a classroom or on a boating lake in a rented boat. Bit like Drivers licences too, having one doesn't make you a safe driver as is apparent daily around these parts.

I think I will opt out of this now and thereby try not to upset any more of the local natives. Our boat here in the USA is a full USCG Federal documented one(but in my American wife's name as I cannot do it as a non US citizen albeit a legal 'alien ' US resident, so we WILL comply with USCG rules simply because as owners of a US registered vessel we are obliged to.
For example many nations have no specific blood alcohol limits on a boat , yet many US jurisdictions do. Show you suggest my flag will protect me in the event that I am over the limit., even though I am not breaking my flag states law, see how that works out. !!


I was merely making the point that the rule of law ( whatever law is on the statute book ) applies to all boats in a countries territorial waters. The NZ law for example was specific not generic.

Of course nations apply comity, but that does not render it incapable of applying it should it desire

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