Anybody Fight CA over Hailing Port/Tax BS?

[xymotic]

Originally Posted by sailr69

I have my boat documented and I remember that you have two choices for hailing port; one choice is where the boat is actually moored and the other choice is where the document papers are, or where there were filed. in my case, the boat is moored in Michigan and the documentation papers are filed in the 9th naval district which is Cleveland Ohio. therefor I have Cleveland Ohio as my hailing port. wherever home is now, the boat hailing port is legal

You have WAY WAY more than two choices
And Like I said lots and lots of people buy a boat in FL and truck it cross country and never repaint the stern

but again; even if I accept that it's required; how does that give them the right charge tax on a sale that was (rightfully) taxed in another state?

These are FUNDAMENTAL issues of taxation without representation; illegal search and siezure and basic right and wrong IMO

[markpierce]

Originally Posted by Stu Jackson

Question: You originally said "use" tax. IIRC, CA has sales tax and property tax. No "user" tax. Could you clarify, please?

The use tax is paid by the purchaser rather than the seller. The tax rate (sales or user) is the same in either case. Since I purchased my boat out of the country, the seller/builder didn't collect any sales tax from me. Instead I paid a use tax to the State of California. Tax was based on the tax rate for county my boat was berthed, which was lower than in the county a preside. I also paid import duty tax to the U.S. Government.

[xymotic]

Originally Posted by Stu Jackson

Question: You originally said "use" tax. IIRC, CA has sales tax and property tax. No "user" tax. Could you clarify, please?

FAQ - Use Tax on Purchases of Vehicles, Vessels, Aircraft - Board of Equalization

Read paragraph 10 really carefully because the "bill" is a "determination" and then it's on me to prove my innocence thereafter It's shady language used by shady people to act shady simple as that

It's really a sales tax they just gotta be difficult and confusing and call it something else

But it is in fact called a 'use' tax

The boat has nothing whatsoever to do with CA except the name painted on the back (which is actually "olympia" still

[Stu Jackson]

Originally Posted by xymotic

FAQ - Use Tax on Purchases of Vehicles, Vessels, Aircraft - Board of Equalization

Read paragraph 10 really carefully because the "bill" is a "determination" and then it's on me to prove my innocence thereafter It's shady language used by shady people to act shady simple as that

It's really a sales tax they just gotta be difficult and confusing and call it something else

But it is in fact called a 'use' tax

The boat has nothing whatsoever to do with CA except the name painted on the back (which is actually "olympia" still

Thanks for the clarification. I read #1, too, which essentially says use tax IS sales tax, pretty simple.

#10 says: Can I dispute or appeal a BOE determination of tax due? Any person against whom a determination (billing) is made or any person directly interested may petition for redetermination of a billed liability. You have 30 days from the date of the Notice of Determination (bill) to submit a Petition for Redetermination. It must be in writing and specify the grounds on which you base your claim. If you have additional documentation to verify your exemption from tax, you may submit it along with your petition. (Revenue and Taxation Code section 6561)
Our Petition Section will acknowledge receipt of your request and inform you of the additional documentation required to qualify for exemption/exclusion. If your petition is approved or adjusted, you will receive a statement showing the revised or canceled billing. If your petition is denied, you will be notified that the tax remains due...

So, you're still in a state of denial. Send 'em more paperwork, just like Rich Boren described, and be done with it. I understand you've been in contact with them a few times. Finish them off!!!

[xymotic]

I would also point out that none of the "exemptions" apply to me
Regulation 1594

I should not have to apply for an exemption to a transaction that has nothing whatsoever to do with a state I do not live in nor is the boat in any way related to (IMHO)

I seriously see absolutely no difference between California vs France or Zimbabwe on this matter they are equally ridiculous demanding that I spend any time or energy on this

[Stu Jackson]

Someone (wise) told me long ago: "Perceptions are reality." Kinda right after "You never have another chance to make a first impression."

In your case, reality is reality. Deal with it.

Good luck.

[JayCall]

Wow this just seems to go on and on. For Dot-Dun, CA asserts jurisdiction over the boat, not the person. As I posted earlier, it does so based on the home port designation in the USCG vessel register. It has every right under CA law to do so. If you think there is any attorney that would take this on pro bono, you don't know many lawyers. As a tax attorney, I would give xymotic the same advice given here-although I would charge him handsomely for it. For Xymotic-as to whether CA has any "legal" right to use the USCG database, of course it does, if nothing else, it is a public record available to everyone. But, as noted by others, states and the feds do have cooperative agreements to share info. States can use any means they can to find boats, some use dock walkers, some require marinas to report, reportedly Fl uses cameras on bridges (although I have never been able to confirm that). Swallow the ill-feeling and whatever else, and provide the documents needed to get CA off your back. Then you will have a good story to tell over beers in a beach bar.

[xymotic]

Originally Posted by Stu Jackson

Thanks for the clarification. I read #1, too, which essentially says use tax IS sales tax, pretty simple.

#10 says: Can I dispute or appeal a BOE determination of tax due? Any person against whom a determination (billing) is made or any person directly interested may petition for redetermination of a billed liability. You have 30 days from the date of the Notice of Determination (bill) to submit a Petition for Redetermination. It must be in writing and specify the grounds on which you base your claim. If you have additional documentation to verify your exemption from tax, you may submit it along with your petition. (Revenue and Taxation Code section 6561)
Our Petition Section will acknowledge receipt of your request and inform you of the additional documentation required to qualify for exemption/exclusion. If your petition is approved or adjusted, you will receive a statement showing the revised or canceled billing. If your petition is denied, you will be notified that the tax remains due...

So, you're still in a state of denial. Send 'em more paperwork, just like Rich Boren described, and be done with it. I understand you've been in contact with them a few times. Finish them off!!!

Dear Stu

I am pleased to inform you that you have a large inheritance due as you are related to the chief seattle Royal Family

You **MUST** immediately wire the city of Seattle $1000

If you do not timely wire the City of Seattle $1000 to secure your inheritance you have 10 days to send us notarized proof that you are exempt Otherwise Seattle POLICE will come to your house and forcibly bring you back to Seattle to answer before the tribal council

If you are claiming exemption choose:

1) You are A member of the Duwamish tribe already currently married or engaged to a descendant of Chief Seattle

2) You are a licensed tribal elder subject to reciprocity agreements with another approved tribe or council pursuant to SEA #1234-BSC(a)

Failure to respond to this determination will result in the forfeiture of your inheritance; AND a maintenance fee of $100 per month


I'm not in denial; I understand the situation fully I'm not the guy that goes into court claiming the police don't have sovereign authority over me to issue a speeding ticket

But I'm pretty damned sure I am not going to "just cooperate" if the City of Bordeaux wants to send me a bill for the annual appreciation on a 10 year old wine I drank last night

They say I have 30 and then 10 days to follow their procedures; I say they have ZERO right to demand anything from me

[Nicholson58]

Originally Posted by oldragbaggers

The USCG is a national organization. When you send them documentation papers and list your hailing port, that is the same as saying that is the main port of call, or location of the boat. Even if your address is in Washington. You would not be the first person that kept a boat berthed in a state in which you did not reside.

You opened the can of worms by listing Hollywood as the hailing port, which puts the ball in your court to prove that it's not actually berthed there. You'll expend far more negative energy fighting them than the amount of time it would take to put together the required documentation and clear the matter up. Unless you just enjoy the sporting aspect of the fight.

This is totally not true. You can name the boat anything you want and pick any US state,city. "Ski-Bum Steamboat Co." if you like. It doesn't even have to be anywhere near water.

Just photo-copy the documents, notarize & mail to the pinheads. Keep an identical copy for your records & the receipts for mail & notarize. In Michigan, we did not need to register until we were ready to splash. We were on the hard for 3 years in a heavy haul truck yard.

[BandB]

Originally Posted by xymotic

I would also point out that none of the "exemptions" apply to me
Regulation 1594

I should not have to apply for an exemption to a transaction that has nothing whatsoever to do with a state I do not live in nor is the boat in any way related to (IMHO)

I seriously see absolutely no difference between California vs France or Zimbabwe on this matter they are equally ridiculous demanding that I spend any time or energy on this

They wouldn't charge if you just answered their request for information. Who knows what history the boat has. Be glad you're not the guy who bought a boat that in its previous life had been used for running drugs and was now on every law enforcement group's radar.

While you may not be trying to do anything wrong, may have paid Washington sales tax, done everything right (I don't know), there are hundreds who try to circumvent the laws. So they ask for very simple proof. They've actually shown amazing tolerance and patience if you haven't responded in the period of two to three years. And not sure California minds being compared to France. Don't know how they feel about Zimbabwe.

[Stu Jackson]

Originally Posted by xymotic

Dear Stu

I am pleased to inform you that you have a large inheritance due as you are related to the chief seattle Royal Family

You **MUST** immediately wire the city of Seattle $1000 ...

I'm not in denial; I understand the situation fully I'm not the guy that goes into court claiming the police don't have sovereign authority over me to issue a speeding ticket

But I'm pretty damned sure I am not going to "just cooperate" if the City of Bordeaux wants to send me a bill for the annual appreciation on a 10 year old wine I drank last night

They say I have 30 and then 10 days to follow their procedures; I say they have ZERO right to demand anything from me

Zero right? Mebbe in your mind, but it simply is the law, whether you like it or not. Good point made that it's the BOAT they're after, not YOU.

#2 says:

How does the Board of Equalization (BOE) receive information about my purchase? The Consumer Use Tax Section receives information from various sources. These sources include the Department of Motor Vehicles (DMV) on vehicles, motor homes, and undocumented (CF) vessels and from the Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) on aircraft. Records obtained from the United States Coast Guard (USCG) identify transfers of ownership of documented vessels. California County Assessor's Offices and other states also provide information identifying ownership of vehicles, mobile homes, vessels, and aircraft.


It'd be nice if some of you read this, thanks to the OP for the link.


Clear enough?


You shouldn't have to pay them anything. I think we all agree on that.

But if you're not in denial, then how do you explain: "But I'm pretty damned sure I am not going to "just cooperate..."

Heck, if were Bordeaux, I'd go there in a heartbeat!

Seattle? Not so much, but when it's sunny...

[BandB]

Originally Posted by Stu Jackson

Heck, if were Bordeaux, I'd go there in a heartbeat!

Seattle? Not so much, but when it's sunny...

Stu, what big font you have.

Seattle was nice today. The Flight Museum is incredible too. Now dinner.

[oldragbaggers]

Originally Posted by Nicholson58

This is totally not true. You can name the boat anything you want and pick any US state,city. "Ski-Bum Steamboat Co." if you like. It doesn't even have to be anywhere near water.

Just photo-copy the documents, notarize & mail to the pinheads. Keep an identical copy for your records & the receipts for mail & notarize. In Michigan, we did not need to register until we were ready to splash. We were on the hard for 3 years in a heavy haul truck yard.

I guess I must not have been very clear in what I was saying (although I thought I clarified it in another post). I didn't mean that the hailing port necessarily HAD TO BE the berthing port, I just meant that by listing Hollywood they raised a red flag that prompted CA to look into it. I do realize that you can list any location you want as your hailing port (I recently saw a sailboat here in the Chesapeake with Boulder, CO listed as the hailing port. I'm pretty sure it didn't sail it here from there.)

I don't understand what the big deal is. Taxing authorities don't have a crystal ball to know when boat sales take place and not all people are honest and forthcoming. If you are doing a state registration then they'll get you for your taxes before they'll give you a title and registration stickers, but if you're doing it through Coast Guard documentation, who is doing the policing to make sure that you pay the taxes? It doesn't seem too much of a stretch to me that the state taxing authorities would check this database to monitor the new documentations and see what states are listed as a) the owners residence state and b) the hailing port (which MIGHT indicate that the boat is located in their state.)

I imagine that far more time and energy has been spent venting in this thread than what it would take to clear this matter up and be done with it. I love it when people state they are die hard liberals and then rail against the tax man in the next breath. Liberals love taxes....how else is the wealth going to get redistributed?

[Stu Jackson]

Originally Posted by BandB

The Flight Museum is incredible too. Now dinner.

Yes, I know, I designed the mech & elec systems for it. Dinner, too, we're in the same time zone.

[DotDun]

Originally Posted by JayCall

Wow this just seems to go on and on. For Dot-Dun, CA asserts jurisdiction over the boat, not the person. As I posted earlier, it does so based on the home port designation in the USCG vessel register. It has every right under CA law to do so. If you think there is any attorney that would take this on pro bono, you don't know many lawyers. As a tax attorney, I would give xymotic the same advice given here-although I would charge him handsomely for it. For Xymotic-as to whether CA has any "legal" right to use the USCG database, of course it does, if nothing else, it is a public record available to everyone. But, as noted by others, states and the feds do have cooperative agreements to share info. States can use any means they can to find boats, some use dock walkers, some require marinas to report, reportedly Fl uses cameras on bridges (although I have never been able to confirm that). Swallow the ill-feeling and whatever else, and provide the documents needed to get CA off your back. Then you will have a good story to tell over beers in a beach bar.

It seems CA is asserting jurisdiction over the transaction of the sale, not just a boat (that hasn't been in CA for several years).

Again, my point is CA is very mis-guided using the NVDC db. As I've proven, hailing port and actual location can be completely different.

Also, I would be surprised if CA pushed it past intimation.

And yes, I would have no problem finding a lawyer that despises abuse of authority as much as I do. They would take the case pro bono, been there, done that. As of now, there is no case. CA must do something very stupid like file a lien against the boat, then you have a case. Sending letters demanding payment really isn't a case, they must actually do something to affect the use/future sale of the boat.

Ignoring CA is not against WA law and since CA has no jurisdiction in the sale of a WA vessel, located in WA, in a transaction between WA residents/entities, the OP owes CA nothing.

Would sending the asked for documentation stop the madness? Sure. Is there any legal requirement to do so? No.

But for sure, being submissive to abuse of authority won't change authorities behavior either. CA is playing the odds on how many will push back on them.