All things COLREGS no 2

[Olde Chief]

The basic rule here is PROTECT YOUR SELF AND THE PEOPLE WITH YOU WITHOUT ENDANGERING ANY ONE ELSE...IS ESSENTIALLY SITUATIONAL AWARENESS. THIS OVER RULES THE COLREGS EVERY TIME. Else why did the operator of the smaller boat speed up to avoid an accident, even though he was the stand on vessel. We can only guess about the other larger vessel and why he didn't stand off, did he have a proper lookout? In any event the operator of the smaller vessel did what he had to do to avoid an accident, safely.

[four winds]

We were both singlehanding.

I didn't speed up, I resumed speed, quickly. I reapplied the throttle after throttling down as I decided the best move while preparing to give up stand on status. It all happened in a matter of maybe fifteen seconds.

Would have seen him sooner if my attention and my binos had not been on a motor boat and watercraft, and swimmer in the water at the marina entrance. Which cleared up just before I noticed the approaching sailboat. My head is always on a swivel, but the situation ahead had my attention for a moment.

Would have been a non event if the give way vessel had made a small correction to starboard a minute sooner. And a good example how the simplest of crossings can go wrong.

Frankly, if I had noticed the situation developing two mintes sooner and five hundred yards away I would have reduced speed slightly before a perception of a close CPA even existed to most boaters and not felt slighted at all. But that is when I had the binos to my face.

[Rustic Charm]

Originally Posted by Olde Chief

Anyone who is traveling on the Water, In the Air, or on a Road has The Responsibility to Avoid an Accident if Possible.

MY RULE, IF IT IS BIGGER THAN ME OR WILL HURT MY BOAT, I STAY CLEAR...

I follow 'your' rule Olde Chief myself. But I sail in an area that whilst it maybe notorious, it's exceptionally calm, or non conjested. Very few, if any recreaitonal boaters seem to know even the most basic of rules.

BUT, if you are sailing in really conjested waters with line after line of large commercial ships (like the English Channel), lots of passenger ferries, taxis (Like in Sydney Harbour), following your rule then I can immagine how it would confuse the hell out of those bigger than your vessels that are trying to follow the rules. And as others have pointed out in other threads, can even lead them to making alterations to their course for safety, because they can't work out what your doing. In those situations, just staying clear, isn't enough. It would be absolutely essential to have a refined working kowledge of the rules and abide by them I would think.

[arsenelupiga]

Originally Posted by Olde Chief

The basic rule here is PROTECT YOUR SELF AND THE PEOPLE WITH YOU WITHOUT ENDANGERING ANY ONE ELSE...IS ESSENTIALLY SITUATIONAL AWARENESS. THIS OVER RULES THE COLREGS EVERY TIME. Else why did the operator of the smaller boat speed up to avoid an accident, even though he was the stand on vessel. We can only guess about the other larger vessel and why he didn't stand off, did he have a proper lookout? In any event the operator of the smaller vessel did what he had to do to avoid an accident, safely.

i agree here. It is like driving in austalia. rules do not apply. Reason is there are so many new entrants that do not have clue about driving. I do not follow any rules. Only rule is how the other car behaves. Is it drugged, or has 3 beers or senile or first time drive on left, bubble gum ego, etc.

Applied same logic when on sea where bubble gum ego seem to be the biggest problem.

the only time i was racing some frick purposely hit our boat as there was some racing rule so it was our fault and i still dont have clue about. what a moron.

resolution: i will never race.

[Rustic Charm]

Originally Posted by Olde Chief

The basic rule here is PROTECT YOUR SELF AND THE PEOPLE WITH YOU WITHOUT ENDANGERING ANY ONE ELSE...IS ESSENTIALLY SITUATIONAL AWARENESS. THIS OVER RULES THE COLREGS EVERY TIME. Else why did the operator of the smaller boat speed up to avoid an accident, even though he was the stand on vessel. We can only guess about the other larger vessel and why he didn't stand off, did he have a proper lookout? In any event the operator of the smaller vessel did what he had to do to avoid an accident, safely.

A bold statement.

I know what your getting at. But if your really actually being 'situational aware' and then taking action when need to, then your abiding by the COLREGs, not 'over ruling them'. I can't imagine any situation when the COLREGs would be truly justifiably overridden.

[Olde Chief]

Know and understand the problems encountered in high traffic areas such as the Long Beach, San Pedro, San Diego, Seattle, Boston, Cape Cod. ICW, Florida, areas along with Vancouver, BC and Sydney, Australia. and have dealt with the crazies that don't have the slightest idea about the COLREGS. So all I can say is that we (everyone here) probably tries to comply with the COLREGS, as much as we can, but the most important factor is the is the safety of those with us and those around us.... Good Sailing to ALL.

[four winds]

I take Old Chief's statement differently now. Not to mean situational awareness over rules the colregs, but rather good awareness allows knowledge of the regs to be applied pruduntly and successfully.

And staying out of the way of the big boys before the rules take effect is not contrary to the rules.

I doubt he has the "I'm bigger just plow through" entitlement that my fellow boater yesterday may have had. Kudos to you Old Chief for not taking offense at my suggestion of just that and not responding in a manner that often happens here.

FWIW, I wish others would post crossing situations they have encountered by description and sketches if needed for discussion in a calm manner. I have one where myself and four other boats were converging on a single point mid bay in a star pattern. Three of which were on collision course. I would post it if others would post their scenarios sometime. I've already posted several in various threads including my mistakes.

[Stu Jackson]

Originally Posted by four winds

Why did that have to happen?

Great situational description.

In many cases, distance is relative for different skippers. He also could have been constrained by other traffic that you may not have known about. Regardless, he did the right thing.

There's the old saw about racers not thinking they're not close unless they touch another boat or a mark - penalties both, of course.

Yesterday we were in a race, 0 wind, 1.3 knots on an ebb, ended up next to another boat.

Next. Like in the thickness of a piece of paper and neither one of us wanted to engine it out and quit the race.

They were leeward and had rights, but the issue was to make friends , so we got a bumper out, missed any and ALL damage on one ferry boat wake/wave and separated enough for two pieces of paper!

We gave each other a quiet fist pump, but I used mine to push him off even further. "I hope you don't consider that a form of outside propulsion."

We both whistled for wind. Never did show up!

But "how close" is really, really, relative. You didn't touch, you did the right thing. So did he.

If he didn't, "When in doubt: turn RIGHT!"

Thanks for a great story. Hope this one qualifies for the other question.

[monte]

Originally Posted by arsenelupiga

i agree here. It is like driving in austalia. rules do not apply. Reason is there are so many new entrants that do not have clue about driving. I do not follow any rules. Only rule is how the other car behaves. Is it drugged, or has 3 beers or senile or first time drive on left, bubble gum ego, etc.

Applied same logic when on sea where bubble gum ego seem to be the biggest problem.

the only time i was racing some frick purposely hit our boat as there was some racing rule so it was our fault and i still dont have clue about. what a moron.

resolution: i will never race.

I can't really agree with the new entrants comment. From my experience driving in Aus as well as overseas, the worst drivers are Aussies. Drive on a French motorway and see how they manage to maintain traffic flow, along with one car spaces between an staying strictly in the right lane unless overtaking. Accidents up ahead or slowing traffic and the hazard lights come straight on...really well organised and attentive drivers. I can attest to this because I'm a lazy Aussie driver and Jen is a much better than me French driver. That said, when your driving across the nullabor there's not really much need to maintain a proper watch except for the odd stray roo...

[FamilyVan]

Originally Posted by Stu Jackson

Great situational description.

In many cases, distance is relative for different skippers. He also could have been constrained by other traffic that you may not have known about. Regardless, he did the right thing.

There's the old saw about racers not thinking they're not close unless they touch another boat or a mark - penalties both, of course.

Yesterday we were in a race, 0 wind, 1.3 knots on an ebb, ended up next to another boat.

Next. Like in the thickness of a piece of paper and neither one of us wanted to engine it out and quit the race.

They were leeward and had rights, but the issue was to make friends , so we got a bumper out, missed any and ALL damage on one ferry boat wake/wave and separated enough for two pieces of paper!

We gave each other a quiet fist pump, but I used mine to push him off even further. "I hope you don't consider that a form of outside propulsion."

We both whistled for wind. Never did show up!

But "how close" is really, really, relative. You didn't touch, you did the right thing. So did he.

If he didn't, "When in doubt: turn RIGHT!"

Thanks for a great story. Hope this one qualifies for the other question.

Okay, so racing close is acceptable if you're racing, because you and the other guy know that you're racing and assume a certain amount of risk.

Racing close with people who aren't racing is:
1) wrong
2) rude
3) dangerous

Sent from my SGH-I547C using Cruisers Sailing Forum mobile app

[four winds]

Point taken, Stu. We didn't collide and exchanged the typically common wave as usual. And me throttling down made it closer than it would have been otherwise, by some small degree at least as I was off the throttle for only a couple of seconds.

BTW, my brain had already said hard to starboard but my hand hadn't reacted when he altered course. I throttled back up instead. If he continued on and I went hard starboard we would have been parallel mere feet apart. Things happen fast sometimes but again I take your point as valid.

When being stand on, first one must be sure and, be willing to push one's comfort zone envelope it seems. Easy to see why others have a just stay out of everyone way method. But in this case I got to the party late and had no choice but apply the rules.

[Stu Jackson]

Originally Posted by FamilyVan

Okay, so racing close is acceptable if you're racing, because you and the other guy know that you're racing and assume a certain amount of risk.

Racing close with people who aren't racing is:
1) wrong
2) rude
3) dangerous

Yes, I agree wholeheartedly.

Perhaps you missed the point of my post.

I was responding to the "situations" question. That's all. Nice folks, we were both racing, but it was calm (too calm) and we resolved the issue in a friendly manner.

That was the whole point. We were BOTH racing. Did you miss that part? Or did miss yours? If so, I'm sorry.

I've been hassled by some odd weirdos: We were on starboard tack, he was on port. We were the stand on vessel in high winds in The Slot on SF Bay in the summer = 25 knots TRUE. When he yelled "I'm a racer!" I bailed!

Yes, there are jerks out there, and yes, you're right. That simply wasn't my point and I don't want folks to take it the wrong way.

That's why they HAVE rules.

[FamilyVan]

Originally Posted by Stu Jackson

Yes, I agree wholeheartedly.

Perhaps you missed the point of my post.

I was responding to the "situations" question. That's all. Nice folks, we were both racing, but it was calm (too calm) and we resolved the issue in a friendly manner.

That was the whole point. We were BOTH racing. Did you miss that part?

I've been hassled by some odd weirdo, we were on starboard tack, he was on port. We were the stand on vessel in high winds in The Slot on SF Bay in the summer = 25 knots TRUE. When he yelled "I'm a racer!" I bailed!

Yes, there are jerks out there, and yes, you're right. That simply wasn't my point and I don't want folks to take it the wrong way.

That's why they HAVE rules.

No, I didn't miss the point, but I have encountered A LOT of racers who carried their race behaviours outside of their race.

Have you been following the t-bone in Sydney harbour thread? The ferry captain likely didn't alter because he probably assumed it was just anothere racer behaving irresponsibly.

I'm not saying you were behaving irresponsibly, but I'm sure you would agree with that the intimidation and chicken tactics used in racing should be confined to racers. The reality is many racers use them to bully for right of way- outside of racing.

Sent from my SGH-I547C using Cruisers Sailing Forum mobile app

[Stu Jackson]

Originally Posted by FamilyVan

No, I didn't miss the point, but I have encountered A LOT of racers who carried their race behaviours outside of their race.

Have you been following the t-bone in Sydney harbour thread? The ferry captain likely didn't alter because he probably assumed it was just anothere racer behaving irresponsibly.

I'm not saying you were behaving irresponsibly, but I'm sure you would agree with that the intimidation and chicken tactics used in racing should be confined to racers. The reality is many racers use them to bully for right of way- outside of racing.

Yes, I read it.

Yes, I agree that taking ANY kind of intimidation is wrong, In ANY circumstance.

Yup, there are jerks out there.

"Chicken tactics"??? You gotta be kidding. They ARE using the rules.

That's why they (WE?!?) rarely hit each other.

I have no idea what your background is.

Ever drive in Australia? Or China? Or Iran? (I have). Or France & Germany? (I have.)

Last week a friend of mine with the same boat took another fellow from back East and his family, and me, out for a sail. While we were chatting on a lovely daysail with wonderful 12 knot winds, (with his wife cowering on the "high" side of the boat which was at a 7 degree heel - "I just HATE "tilting" (she probably called it "healing"!!! - and they've had their boat for 10 years!!!), a GLORIOUS and unusual day for SF Bay during ANY time of year, the guest said: "Yeah, we moved into a marina with a LOT of racers, and when I told them they were all rude, we always wondered why they never talked to us again."

He didn't realize that while my friend and I BOTH cruise, one of us won the most recent one-design National Regatta for our boats and the other is a consistent winner in summer and winter racing series and our one-design yearly races.

Gee, wonder why there was dead silence.

Your attitude is showing. Really.

My experience tells me that racers know the rules, and that non-racers should, too.

They should avoid racing fleets if they can. But if someone is racing, it doesn't mean they can circumvent the rules. In fact, during our daysail that day, we encountered a racing fleet and we were on port tack.

As we cleared some racers after their spinnaker takedown buoy roundings, I deliberately said: "Oh, we have right-of-way," just to see if this guy/guest had a clue.

Nope.

Too bad. All our skipper wanted to do was to show him an up-close buoy rounding without impeding the racers.

Who were ALL quite graceful and understanding.

Labeling any group of folks is really unfair and merits questioning behavioral patterns on your own part.

Learn the rules and use them wisely.

[Stu Jackson]

One other thing:

Here on SF Bay the ferries, and there are many of them - Alcatraz, dinner cruises, SF to parts north - ALL avoid sailboats. They know.

BIG ships. NOT. They have their own separation scheme and you must be aware of what's going on. CH 14 is VTS, Vessel Traffic Service, and I listen all the time.

Point being, that in New York, for example, ya don't mess with the Staten Island Ferry. I don't know, for example, what happens in Puget Sound. I DO know what happens in the English Channel (thanks to Dockhead).

Each place is different.

You learn as you sail.

Rules still apply.