All things COLREGS

[Ex-Calif]

Originally Posted by Rustic Charm

Something tells me I'm going to cop it when Dockhead reads all this.

I think he is still figuring out his water heater... He apparently thinks he has a "right" to hot water and cabin heat on board.

He might spank us both - LOL...

[FamilyVan]

Originally Posted by Ex-Calif

Thanks for the sentiment but I really am not looking to be "right" or gain agreement. I am interested in the debate so that we can thoughtfully consider our actions.

The test of who is right and wrong is in court. As Dockhead likes to point out in almost all cases both parties are wrong!

The "crowning" rule is that each party is responsible to avoid a collision. It's in the title


"INTERNATIONAL REGULATIONS FOR PREVENTING COLLISIONS AT SEA"

They aren't the "Rules of the Road" like car driving. They aren't the "Who Has Right of Way Regulations"

Once you internalize that both parties must avoid collisions you can accept that no one has rights.

I didn't mean to suggest you were right and RC wrong. She isn't wrong, she makes excellent arguments. Both intelligent and carefully considered arguments.

However, I do believe, the ColRegs are written too cautiously to assign right of way.

[Rustic Charm]

Originally Posted by FamilyVan

I didn't mean to suggest you were right and RC wrong. She isn't wrong, she makes excellent arguments. Both intelligent and carefully considered arguments.

However, I do believe, the ColRegs are written too cautiously to assign right of way.

awe gee, thanks sweety.

I'll let me wife know I have an admirer..

[Rustic Charm]

Originally Posted by Ex-Calif

I think he is still figuring out his water heater... He apparently thinks he has a "right" to hot water and cabin heat on board.

He might spank us both - LOL...

He might have to 'Give way' to cold water, unless of course he wants to 'stand on' his laurels.

I just crack me up.

[FamilyVan]

Originally Posted by Rustic Charm

awe gee, thanks sweety.

I'll let me wife know I have an admirer..

You're a dude? Somehow I assumed Rustic Charm was a Chic's handle. Now I've been wrong once.

[Ex-Calif]

Originally Posted by FamilyVan

I didn't mean to suggest you were right and RC wrong. She isn't wrong, she makes excellent arguments. Both intelligent and carefully considered arguments.

However, I do believe, the ColRegs are written too cautiously to assign right of way.

If I suspected RC was a chic I would have capitulated a long time ago.

I have 2 ex-wives. I have learned what happens when I insist on being right. My boat sails away to a new owner and my wallet deflates.

I have been "dead right" at least twice...

[FamilyVan]

I must learn slowly, I only have one ex wife, and the current. In my defence, the first one had enough during a 10 month stretch at sea. I learned my lesson, just drive short run passenger ships now.


Once bitten- twice shy.

[carstenb]

Rustic, It was mentioned earlier, but didn't catch anyones attention.

The basic flaw in your argument is your use of the word "right". The Colregs do not give anyone any "rights" whatsoever.

The Colregs assign obligations to ships in various situations.

I hope you'll agree that there is a vast difference between having a "right" and having an "obligation".

Once the distinction above is clear in your mind - Then it is easy to understand that there can be no "right of way" in the Colregs.

You say you'll continue to use the words "right of way" because, amongst other reasons, this is verbage most people understand. Perhaps if you are speaking with landlubbers, but when engaged in converstaions with other sailors, you really shouldn't, because it is incorrect.

[Jim Cate]

Originally Posted by carstenb

Rustic, It was mentioned earlier, but didn't catch anyones attention.

The basic flaw in your argument is your use of the word "right". The Colregs do not give anyone any "rights" whatsoever.

The Colregs assign obligations to ships in various situations.

I hope you'll agree that there is a vast difference between having a "right" and having an "obligation".

Once the distinction above is clear in your mind - Then it is easy to understand that there can be no "right of way" in the Colregs.

You say you'll continue to use the words "right of way" because, amongst other reasons, this is verbage most people understand. Perhaps if you are speaking with landlubbers, but when engaged in converstaions with other sailors, you really shouldn't, because it is incorrect.

Carsten,I think you just found the basic issue here: the difference between having an obligation to avoid collision and the "right" to forge on no matter what may result.

Well thought out!

Jim

[Rustic Charm]

Originally Posted by carstenb

Rustic, It was mentioned earlier, but didn't catch anyones attention.

The basic flaw in your argument is your use of the word "right". The Colregs do not give anyone any "rights" whatsoever.

The Colregs assign obligations to ships in various situations.

I hope you'll agree that there is a vast difference between having a "right" and having an "obligation".

Once the distinction above is clear in your mind - Then it is easy to understand that there can be no "right of way" in the Colregs.

You say you'll continue to use the words "right of way" because, amongst other reasons, this is verbage most people understand. Perhaps if you are speaking with landlubbers, but when engaged in converstaions with other sailors, you really shouldn't, because it is incorrect.

There Is a difference between a right and an obligation, yes. But it is not 'vast' nor are they mutually exclusive.

When it comes down to the basics I, along with many government agencies and many many NGOs involved with the COLREGS simply choose not to place an absolute on the word 'rights'. In all the years I have been involved with the sea I've never heard of such insistence on getting the words right until I've joined CF. And that's because, I don't think it matters to most people. What does matter is that everyone operating a vessel does not have 'an absolute right' and to continue on your way and everyone else just has to avoid you.

In all seriousness, if someone asked me, 'hey RC what's this 'stand on' vessel mean?' My response would and is the same as many explain, 'ah that means you have the right of way'.

Now this word 'obligation', is that a word in the COLREGS?

[Duct Tape]

For the next thread I propose the terms " port "and "starboard" be replaced by the terms " left " and "right " and also " other left "and "other right"

[Ex-Calif]

Originally Posted by Rustic Charm

In all seriousness, if someone asked me, 'hey RC what's this 'stand on' vessel mean?' My response would and is the same as many explain, 'ah that means you have the right of way'.

And as Carstenb pointed out, you would be wrong. Absolutely wrong.

And as Carstenb pointed out. A landlubber wouldn't know better and a sailor would think you are dumb - just sayin'...

(Hint - You wouldn't even think about quoting rule 17?)

[Jacko]

I find it interesting that on a forum for " Cruising Sailors" that this has gone on for so long? yes I am a past racer and this sort of back and forward went on at the bar after just about every race day I am still involved in large Regattas and have to know the Colregs but am now a listener not a debater.

As I am now a dedicated cruising relaxed don't want any stress sailor the true " Right of way comes to mind" (He who has the biggest toys wins) so my play on this whole issue is just get out of the way. My sailing grounds include huge coal ships, car carriers, live stock carriers and my fellow cruisers I make way for all of them and give a good wave as they go by and enjoy the day Cheers

[Rustic Charm]

Originally Posted by Ex-Calif

And as Carstenb pointed out, you would be wrong. Absolutely wrong.

And as Carstenb pointed out. A landlubber wouldn't know better and a sailor would think you are dumb - just sayin'...

(Hint - You wouldn't even think about quoting rule 17?)

Only on CF! and some other forums, because it's about the only place you get this pedantic, dogmatic insistence that to use the word 'rights' is an absoluteness and yet your content to introduce obligations.

But hey, I'm not the only one on CF to continue to use the term. And I'm not alone in my insistence that 'it doesn't matter'. Like I've repeated and you and Carstenb and others continue to ignore, government organisations, many ngo's including sailors and other authorities continue to use the term 'right of way', so I'm in good stead.

It does concern me that on CF the few of you insisting its 'wrong' to refer to 'right of way' revert to bullying and name calling to enforce your insistence of using particular terminology.

[Ex-Calif]

Originally Posted by Jacko

I find it interesting that on a forum for " Cruising Sailors" that this has gone on for so long? yes I am a past racer and this sort of back and forward went on at the bar after just about every race day I am still involved in large Regattas and have to know the Colregs but am now a listener not a debater. :

Yup...

Forget sailing and racing. I have been on this forum long enough to realize (and truly know) you can't convince everyone. Hell, statistics prove you can only get about 66%.

After a while it is just pig wrestling. RC and I will never cross paths on the sea. We likely will never cross paths at the YC bar. Him being correct or not has zero impact on my life or even my boating life.

But it takes 2 to tango so I am guilty as charged.

Actually RC totally gets the spirit of it so he may just be chain jerking now...

In all the years I have been involved with the sea I've never heard of such insistence on getting the words right until I've joined CF. And that's because, I don't think it matters to most people. What does matter is that everyone operating a vessel does not have 'an absolute right' and to continue on your way and everyone else just has to avoid you.