Seacock warning, probably most relevant to Australians

[s/v Jedi]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

The question is different -- whether the European type is good enough, and whether you really need real integral flanged sea cocks.

I think you’re right. This is why I push for the flanged seacocks and flanged adapters. People do not realize the importance, they spend thousands on sail handling systems on boats with just one millimeter of metal to keep the sea out their boat and mount inferior valves on top of those skinny fittings as if it’s not weak enough yet!

A primary system like that is not good enough when it can be improved so much for so little money. This is why it’s a primary system. Even if the boat gets away with it by not sinking then it’s still not good enough. I mean, people have been healed by voodoo but who would prefer a voodoo doctor?

[Oceansailor]

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

If it’s brass then you found the problem. The best ones like a flanged seacock from Groco are bronze with a stainless steel ball and shaft. To save money, the valves that go on top of their flanged adapter have a chromed brass ball but a stainless steel shaft and handle. These are very easy to replace so can be a little cheaper.



Replacing a valve on a fitting that is installed European style is tricky as well because the force required to turn the valve may well turn the skin fitting and cause it to leak or even break off. The only thing that prevents it from turning is the sealant. A flanged adapter is bolted down and putting force on the valve does not load the skin fitting at all.

Well I did ask Groco what material they used. No answer...
On their IBV series they specify chrome plated brass ball. The stem that is clearly visable on pictures looks very much like brass.

[s/v Jedi]

Originally Posted by Oceansailor

Well I did ask Groco what material they used. No answer...
On their IBV series they specify chrome plated brass ball. The stem that is clearly visable on pictures looks very much like brass.

It states stainless steel ball and stem: https://www.groco.net/products/valve...lves/bv-series

[NevilleCat]

Those flanged things look great. But it does appear that the IBV and FBV series have a brass shaft in the pics. Maybe brass isn't necessarily a problem? I like the lubrication point on them though, what grease would you use given there is some mix of metals and Ptfe seals?

[Oceansailor]

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

It states stainless steel ball and stem: https://www.groco.net/products/valve...lves/bv-series

That is good information! I did not see that.

Question is why Groco makes SBV and IBV series in brass?

[s/v Jedi]

Originally Posted by Oceansailor

That is good information! I did not see that.

Question is why Groco makes SBV and IBV series in brass?

The SBV flanged valve is all bronze and stainless. The IBV in-line valve is supposed to go on the flanged adapter (which is all bronze) and I think they put a chromed solid brass ball in to make it cheaper and easier to use, trading that for longevity. The idea must be that they are so easy to swap out.
That said, the IBV valves are pretty solid but I’m not sure on the shaft. The handle is stainless steel for sure.

[Wotname]

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

.........

Replacing a valve on a fitting that is installed European style is tricky as well because the force required to turn the valve may well turn the skin fitting and cause it to leak or even break off. The only thing that prevents it from turning is the sealant. ...........

Really, that is poor design!

I wonder why (and when) they went away from having ears (or tangs) inside the barrel of the skin fitting to hold it stationary when fitting or removing either it's own nut or the valve.

All the ones I have sen in Oz still have the ears but maybe that will change...

Of course if it breaks while removing the valve, it really DID need replacing!

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Wotname

Really, that is poor design!

I wonder why (and when) they went away from having ears (or tangs) inside the barrel of the skin fitting to hold it stationary when fitting or removing either it's own nut or the valve.

All the ones I have sen in Oz still have the ears but maybe that will change...

Of course if it breaks while removing the valve, it really DID need replacing!

Only the cheap skin fittings lack the "ears". You have a stepped wrench which engages the "ears" to hold the skin fitting in place from the outside of the hull when you snug the nut down.


HOWEVER, having changed a lot of these, and owning the wrench, the usual approach is different. Well bedded down in Sika and snugged down, the skin fittings don't go anywhere. So I generally don't use the wrench when replacing ball valves. In one out of ten cases, the skin fitting turns in the hull when you are loosening the ball valve, and I take that as a sign that the bedding was not good enough, and so then I replace the whole lot including the skin fitting. If the skin fitting is solidly bedded in enough to take all that turning, and passes the dezincifiation test, it stays.

[NevilleCat]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

Only the cheap skin fittings lack the "ears". You have a stepped wrench which engages the "ears" to hold the skin fitting in place from the outside of the hull when you snug the nut down.


HOWEVER, having changed a lot of these, and owning the wrench, the usual approach is different. Well bedded down in Sika and snugged down, the skin fittings don't go anywhere. So I generally don't use the wrench when replacing ball valves. In one out of ten cases, the skin fitting turns in the hull when you are loosening the ball valve, and I take that as a sign that the bedding was not good enough, and so then I replace the whole lot including the skin fitting. If the skin fitting is solidly bedded in enough to take all that turning, and passes the dezincifiation test, it stays.

Interesting, I guess I imagined that the twisting load on the skin fitting wouldn't be a problem as it is snugged down with a big nut and I always assumed that twisting forces anti clockwise would be the same as tightening the nut harder. I thought that it might be more of an issue tightening down the ball valve.
I've only ever done it with a helper outside the hull but the temptation is to do it yourself of course...the flanged system would be easier to change the ball valve by yourself I guess.
Practically it is not really an issue as these things don't have to be done often...but apparently it seems every 6 years if you live in Aus and don't want to sell a kidney for decent ones!

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by NevilleCat

Interesting, I guess I imagined that the twisting load on the skin fitting wouldn't be a problem as it is snugged down with a big nut and I always assumed that twisting forces anti clockwise would be the same as tightening the nut harder. I thought that it might be more of an issue tightening down the ball valve.
I've only ever done it with a helper outside the hull but the temptation is to do it yourself of course...the flanged system would be easier to change the ball valve by yourself I guess.
Practically it is not really an issue as these things don't have to be done often...but apparently it seems every 6 years if you live in Aus and don't want to sell a kidney for decent ones!

I'm talking about the twisting load from screwing the ball valve on or off.


I specifically do it WITHOUT a helper just to stress test the bedding.


Flanged adapter is obviously simple to pop the ball valve on or off, but remember those things have the skin fitting buried inside them. So if you want to have a look at the skin fitting, then you need to take off the flanged adapter too.


Same thing with a flanged sea cock. Maybe it's not an issue -- on my boat, I have never had the slightest trace of dezincification on any of my skin fittings. But I've heard that it can happen, so I like to inspect and test them for that. If it starts to happen, it can happen fast, and that's scary.

[NevilleCat]

By the way, I did check out the ones in the local chandler as per original post and they looked pretty well made...some sort of bronze, brass shaft and S/S handle.
But there was some inconsistency, most notably a number of the small 1/2 inch and one 3/4 inch one had been fitted with mild steel nuts, the rest had either brass nuts or stainless, and the larger ones were stainless nuts.
I know that the nuts are only holding the handle from dropping off the (shaped) shaft so not a massive problem but it does show a typical issue when sourcing components from an unknown factory who have no investment in or ownership of their product.
I think we can extrapolate that this is probably applicable to almost every product in every market where products are sourced with the approach of "how cheap can you make them if we order 1000?" instead of "how well can you make them?"
But better brains than I assume that's the way to operate and pretty much dictate those terms, sadly even in a niche market like Marine goods where consumers are often happy to pay more for well made (and safe) products.
Instead we seem to be too often stuck with paying "marine" prices for bulk sourced junk.
Having said that, these ball valves mostly looked pretty good, but....

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by NevilleCat

By the way, I did check out the ones in the local chandler as per original post and they looked pretty well made...some sort of bronze, brass shaft and S/S handle.
But there was some inconsistency, most notably a number of the small 1/2 inch and one 3/4 inch one had been fitted with mild steel nuts, the rest had either brass nuts or stainless, and the larger ones were stainless nuts.
I know that the nuts are only holding the handle from dropping off the (shaped) shaft so not a massive problem but it does show a typical issue when sourcing components from an unknown factory who have no investment in or ownership of their product.
I think we can extrapolate that this is probably applicable to almost every product in every market where products are sourced with the approach of "how cheap can you make them if we order 1000?" instead of "how well can you make them?"
But better brains than I assume that's the way to operate and pretty much dictate those terms, sadly even in a niche market like Marine goods where consumers are often happy to pay more for well made (and safe) products.
Instead we seem to be too often stuck with paying "marine" prices for bulk sourced junk.
Having said that, these ball valves mostly looked pretty good, but....

You are very right about this, and I would avoid any kind of underwater fitting with unknown provenance, for the exact reasons you state.


I have actually visited the island in China where 75% of the world's ball valves are made -- it's something to see. Some of the "factories" are nothing more than ramshackle sheds, with people casting brass out of hand crucibles.



Unlike metals touching each other in a ball valve can end in disaster. I would go only with a well known brand from a company with impeccable reputation. I think chromed brass might be OK for the ball, but everything else needs to be 95-5-5-5 bronze or stainless, with no unlike metals touching each other. This is not the place to save a couple of bucks.

[GILow]

Originally Posted by NevilleCat

Doubtful, even the one in their online picture has a brass shaft. Or at least a brass coloured shaft! I'm going to have a decent look at their current one tomorrow and maybe I will put a magnet over it too!
Maybe the brass shaft de-zinced? What would that look like? Coppery I guess.

Yeah, you were correct. It is brass. I just made a clean cut through the shaft away from the damaged area and it’s solid brass.

Not sure what caused the de-zincification but it ended up looking exactly like rusted steel.

Either way, these fittings are clearly not good enough.

[Oceansailor]

I have had 4 ball valves failing. The stem sheers off as the brass is de-zinked. (Pink color) Why the they de-zink, I do not know? But isn’t it likely that the brass parts acts like a zinc and trying to protect the bronze housing...

[GILow]

Originally Posted by Oceansailor

I have had 4 ball valves failing. The stem sheers off as the brass is de-zinked. (Pink color) Why the they de-zink, I do not know? But isn’t it likely that the brass parts acts like a zinc and trying to protect the bronze housing...

How old were the fittings when this happened? And which brand or supplier?