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Old 24-02-2017, 10:30   #1
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Re-gelcoating my deck: Project thread

In the next week or two I'll be hauling my boat in preparation for a deck refit. The primary objective is re-gelcoating the deck and rebedding everything on the deck. There will be a few associated projects that I can accomplish while this is happening, such as moving a dorade vent, replacing teak handrails with stainless, and a few other odd projects like some rewiring, installation of ceiling lights, and adding insulation between the headliner and coachroof.

I'll spend a week dockside unloading the boat, pulling down the interior trim and headliner, and preparing for the stick to come down, and anything else that's easier to do without the boat hauled.

The gelcoat on my deck has, in the last year, started to deteriorate rather rapidly, in the form of proliferating cracks. These happened despite compounding and polishing. She's just done. A few pictures:







I'm going to try and remove everything off the deck that can reasonably (and even unreasonably, to a degree) be taken off. The exceptions right now are the teak cockpit combing, teak cabin eyebrow, and perhaps the helm.

I plan on painted nonskid when the time comes, probably Awlgrip with Griptex.

Once everything is removed from the deck, the first order of business is going to be grinding/sanding off the existing molded in non-skid. One thing I'll be curious to find out, and perhaps some of you can tell me in advance, is what I'll find. The existing nonskid sits slightly proud of the rest (see below), and I'm assuming that the gelcoat layer is even and that if I want to sand this flush I'll be grinding glass:



I'm fine with leaving most of these areas proud, essentially as a template for the new painted nonskid, but there are existing areas with nonskid that won't get new (under the dodger where the "winch farm" sits, under the boom centerline where lines run back to the cockpit, etc.). Will deal with this as we proceed and I see what I find.

All of the areas with cracks, hairline or otherwise, are going to get ground out, down to good glass, as required. I may do some reinforcement under the primary winches, where the cracking was first noticed. All the others only started to "appear" after 28 years, so I'm not concerned about stress issues elsewhere.

I have a few questions at this point (Minaret, are you there?):

How much of the old gelcoat, if any, need to be sanded off in areas where it appears sound (other than chalky and pitted)? Will new gelcoat on top of an existing layer of old gelcoat make the total layer of gelcoat too thick, and susceptible to cracking?

In areas where I have to grind down past the old gelcoat, after repairing the underlying laminate with cloth/mat/resin as required, what is the best material to bring back to flush/fair with?

What's the best method of making custom sanding blocks that match existing radii/fillets? Is this just trial and error with a belt sander and blocks of wood, with foam 3M backing pads? Thankfully, since my boat is "a shoebox on a banana" most of the surfaces are relatively flat and the required radii/fillets fairly limited.

I'm going to try and document this work as thoroughly as possible with this thread, pictures, questions, victories, accidents, miscalculations and screw ups all included.
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Old 24-02-2017, 12:05   #2
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Re: Re-gelcoating my deck: Project thread

Sorry I can't offer any advice from experience, but will look forward to your progress.
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Old 24-02-2017, 13:03   #3
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Re: Re-gelcoating my deck: Project thread

OK found The Answer to the crack repair/build up question while doing a search on Roloc, lol:

"I'd say about 90% of the "cosmetic" "just in the gelcoat" cracks I grind out actually go well into the glass. Particularly in a case like this, where the cracks are radiating from installed hardware. To make such a crack go away forever, you have to grind and glass it. 1" Roloc grinder, some CSM, and some poly. Glass high, grind fair, brush prime with gel, prep for blends, and shoot away. Anything else is a band-aid." - Minaret

Although, what does "prep for blends" mean? Just fair the prime coat?
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Old 24-02-2017, 13:24   #4
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Re: Re-gelcoating my deck: Project thread

Nice, good luck with the deck refit!


First, to be clear, you say you intend to finish nonskid areas in Awlgrip with Griptex. It sounds like you intend to apply new gelcoat to smooth areas, but it's not clear whether you intend to apply new gel to all waterways or do repairs (unless I missed it). So what's the plan, new gel all around?


How much of the old gelcoat, if any, need to be sanded off in areas where it appears sound (other than chalky and pitted)? Will new gelcoat on top of an existing layer of old gelcoat make the total layer of gelcoat too thick, and susceptible to cracking?


Depends on how thick the factory gel is. It looks from the pics like it may be exceptionally thick in areas. You wanna shoot for about 30-35 mils DFT, so after wet sanding you still have the intended 24 mils. If your new gel is a color match for the old (unlikely), then you may not need to remove too much. I wouldn't remove it all if it's good, you will open up a ton of pinholes if you do.


In areas where I have to grind down past the old gelcoat, after repairing the underlying laminate with cloth/mat/resin as required, what is the best material to bring back to flush/fair with?


Obviously depends on your chosen resin system and finish material. I'd recommend glassing in good poly iso. If you glass carefully just high and grind flush, very little fairing is required. Do this with 3M Premium Filler, glaze with Evercoat, brush prime with gelcoat. Often you can skip right to the last step. Glass high, grind fair, brush apply 3-4 heavy coats of gel as primer, block fair. JMHO.


What's the best method of making custom sanding blocks that match existing radii/fillets? Is this just trial and error with a belt sander and blocks of wood, with foam 3M backing pads? Thankfully, since my boat is "a shoebox on a banana" most of the surfaces are relatively flat and the required radii/fillets fairly limited.



I often buy the durablock kit and take pieces of the rubberized foam block and cut it up in a band saw or chop saw. Then I take the pieces and I put a different radius on each edge, so any given block will have a 1/4' radius on one side and a 1/2' radius on the other. Bigger blocks get bigger radii. Great for perfect fillets. For sanding radii, you need an inverse radius block. I make my own using durablock and a router table. Sometimes I use profile sander bits (throw away the profile sander and keep the rubber inverse radius bits for hand sanding). This is for smaller work. A cove bit on a router table with durablock produces excellent results. So does a good hard block with proper "roll the radius" technique. I also often cheat by doing things like using alu angle to cast a perfect 90 fair edge and then routing to a perfectly fair radius with a laminate trimmer. Use hot glue and Premium Filler for this, along with an alu angle batten. Master Wax Fillet Balls provide the same effect for fillets and inside three way corners. They're worth having.
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Old 24-02-2017, 13:26   #5
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Re: Re-gelcoating my deck: Project thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by Suijin View Post
OK found The Answer to the crack repair/build up question while doing a search on Roloc, lol:

"I'd say about 90% of the "cosmetic" "just in the gelcoat" cracks I grind out actually go well into the glass. Particularly in a case like this, where the cracks are radiating from installed hardware. To make such a crack go away forever, you have to grind and glass it. 1" Roloc grinder, some CSM, and some poly. Glass high, grind fair, brush prime with gel, prep for blends, and shoot away. Anything else is a band-aid." - Minaret

Although, what does "prep for blends" mean? Just fair the prime coat?


If you are doing a gelcoat repair, you must "blend" the edges. This means sanding 400 grit for prep to both key the surface and remove oxidation/discoloration around the repair so the original color will match. If you are re gelcoating the entire surface, instead of doing spot repairs, you don't need to worry about this step.


You will want 1", 2", and 3" roloc fittings most likely. At least 1 & 2. They're cheap.
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Old 24-02-2017, 13:32   #6
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Re: Re-gelcoating my deck: Project thread

Most people use a pneumatic right angle for grinding with a roloc fitting. Get one of these instead; grinds just as fast, more control and torque, way less mess because dust isn't blown everywhere by air exhaust, way less noise. Plus multiple uses; great for buffing where a big buffer won't fit. Pays for itself.


https://www.amazon.com/Milwaukee-243.../dp/B00LESTLOS
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Old 24-02-2017, 13:43   #7
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Re: Re-gelcoating my deck: Project thread

Here's a little before and after on a Spindrift 43 I'm doing right now. This is Awlgrip with Griptex nonskid and roll and tip Perfection (i.e, a quick and dirty). I woulda done new gel but it was already painted.
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Old 24-02-2017, 13:58   #8
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Re: Re-gelcoating my deck: Project thread

Two things, sounds like you're doing this yourself under tarp in the yard? And you're painting over anyways, so why not sand and grind out the cracks fair with thickens epoxy and paint as you plan anyways and skip the inconvenience of gel coating in an uncontrolled environment? Most of those look cosmetic from thick factory gel coat and hardware holes not being chamfered. Might be making more work than required? Of course it will still need a full sanding for a good bond etc
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Old 24-02-2017, 17:20   #9
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Re: Re-gelcoating my deck: Project thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by rbk View Post
Two things, sounds like you're doing this yourself under tarp in the yard? And you're painting over anyways, so why not sand and grind out the cracks fair with thickens epoxy and paint as you plan anyways and skip the inconvenience of gel coating in an uncontrolled environment? Most of those look cosmetic from thick factory gel coat and hardware holes not being chamfered. Might be making more work than required? Of course it will still need a full sanding for a good bond etc
I'm doing this in a DIY yard, in their shed. I want to have expert help, and other sets of hand available, and this yard provides that.

I'd rather do gelcoat because A) it will last longer, if properly cared for B) it will cost less since most of the work is my labor C) It will look better.

If you paint you set yourself up for painting again in 5-10 years, and considerable expense, and repairs are difficult. The nonskid will easy to renew as no hardware will need to be pulled to do it.
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Old 24-02-2017, 17:56   #10
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Re: Re-gelcoating my deck: Project thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by minaret View Post
First, to be clear, you say you intend to finish nonskid areas in Awlgrip with Griptex. It sounds like you intend to apply new gelcoat to smooth areas, but it's not clear whether you intend to apply new gel to all waterways or do repairs (unless I missed it). So what's the plan, new gel all around?
The tentative plan is new gelcoat all over, then the Awlgrip non skid on top. That strikes me as fundamentally easier and also providing a better more consistent result. If I'm wrong please let me know!

Quote:
Originally Posted by minaret View Post
Depends on how thick the factory gel is. It looks from the pics like it may be exceptionally thick in areas. You wanna shoot for about 30-35 mils DFT, so after wet sanding you still have the intended 24 mils. If your new gel is a color match for the old (unlikely), then you may not need to remove too much. I wouldn't remove it all if it's good, you will open up a ton of pinholes if you do.
I don't know how thick it is. In some spots is it worn clear off, such around hatch frames from overzealous polishing. At other spots, as you say, it appears quite thick.

My understanding is that you want (as you mention) 30-35 mils after spraying so that the final faired and polished surface is 24 mils of gelcoat. My question is, how much of the old gelcoat do you want to get off, in areas where it appears largely sound (no cracking, only chalking? It's sort of an academic question, since the molded nonskid covers 80% of the surface area and is coming off.

Quote:
Originally Posted by minaret View Post
I often buy the durablock kit and take pieces of the rubberized foam block and cut it up in a band saw or chop saw. Then I take the pieces and I put a different radius on each edge, so any given block will have a 1/4' radius on one side and a 1/2' radius on the other. Bigger blocks get bigger radii. Great for perfect fillets. For sanding radii, you need an inverse radius block. I make my own using durablock and a router table. Sometimes I use profile sander bits (throw away the profile sander and keep the rubber inverse radius bits for hand sanding). This is for smaller work. A cove bit on a router table with durablock produces excellent results. So does a good hard block with proper "roll the radius" technique. I also often cheat by doing things like using alu angle to cast a perfect 90 fair edge and then routing to a perfectly fair radius with a laminate trimmer. Use hot glue and Premium Filler for this, along with an alu angle batten. Master Wax Fillet Balls provide the same effect for fillets and inside three way corners. They're worth having.
Good info, thanks. I've eyed those durabloc kits and wondered how I could mod them. I've actually been thinking about using some castable flexible foam and making blocks from the existing profiles. The most difficult one is going to be where the coach roof meets the sides as as it's a fair large radius curve. Most of the others are probably between 1/2" and 1".

One more question that has been bugging me; for areas with wood trim, where the gelcoat comes right up against it, usually at a 90 degree angle, what's the best method for masking the wood and then getting the tape off and a clean, or workable edge on the gelcoat? I would think that after the gelcoat cures you're in trouble trying to get the masking off.
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Old 24-02-2017, 18:00   #11
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Re: Re-gelcoating my deck: Project thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by Suijin View Post
I'm doing this in a DIY yard, in their shed. I want to have expert help, and other sets of hand available, and this yard provides that.

I'd rather do gelcoat because A) it will last longer, if properly cared for B) it will cost less since most of the work is my labor C) It will look better.

If you paint you set yourself up for painting again in 5-10 years, and considerable expense, and repairs are difficult. The nonskid will easy to renew as no hardware will need to be pulled to do it.
Sorry I thought you were kiwi or alwgripping over it anyways. At least you're properly covered to do it.
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Old 24-02-2017, 18:01   #12
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Re: Re-gelcoating my deck: Project thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by minaret View Post
Most people use a pneumatic right angle for grinding with a roloc fitting. Get one of these instead; grinds just as fast, more control and torque, way less mess because dust isn't blown everywhere by air exhaust, way less noise. Plus multiple uses; great for buffing where a big buffer won't fit. Pays for itself.

https://www.amazon.com/Milwaukee-243.../dp/B00LESTLOS
It's on my (incomplete) shopping list:

Milwaukee 2438-22X M12 Variable Speed Polisher/Sander – Xc/Cp Kit
Makita 9237CX3 7-Inch Variable Speed Polisher-Sander with Polishing Kit

3M 02600 4-1/2" x 5-1/2" Microfine Softback Sanding Sponge
3M 02601 4-1/2" x 5-1/2" Ultrafine Softback Sanding Sponge
3M™ Purple Finishing Film Hookit™ Disc, 5 inch, P1000 grit, 30569
3M Clean Sanding Soft Interface Disc Pad 28321, Hook and Loop, 5" Diameter x 0.50" Thick

3M™ Medium Roloc™ Disc Pad TP, 1 inch, 7772
3M™ Roloc™ Shank 45102
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Old 24-02-2017, 19:51   #13
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Re: Re-gelcoating my deck: Project thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by Suijin View Post
The tentative plan is new gelcoat all over, then the Awlgrip non skid on top. That strikes me as fundamentally easier and also providing a better more consistent result. If I'm wrong please let me know!



I don't know how thick it is. In some spots is it worn clear off, such around hatch frames from overzealous polishing. At other spots, as you say, it appears quite thick.

My understanding is that you want (as you mention) 30-35 mils after spraying so that the final faired and polished surface is 24 mils of gelcoat. My question is, how much of the old gelcoat do you want to get off, in areas where it appears largely sound (no cracking, only chalking? It's sort of an academic question, since the molded nonskid covers 80% of the surface area and is coming off.



Good info, thanks. I've eyed those durabloc kits and wondered how I could mod them. I've actually been thinking about using some castable flexible foam and making blocks from the existing profiles. The most difficult one is going to be where the coach roof meets the sides as as it's a fair large radius curve. Most of the others are probably between 1/2" and 1".

One more question that has been bugging me; for areas with wood trim, where the gelcoat comes right up against it, usually at a 90 degree angle, what's the best method for masking the wood and then getting the tape off and a clean, or workable edge on the gelcoat? I would think that after the gelcoat cures you're in trouble trying to get the masking off.


Yeah don't stress too much on how much original gel you leave, when you start sanding it'll all make sense. If you're doing new gel everywhere, just 180 everything for prep. After you spot prime your repairs with gel, 180 the primer gel out too. For gel tape edges pull tape soon after shooting. Most painters apply masking first and then final tape on the edge over masking film or paper, so you can pull the edge tape and retape as many times as necessary without pulling all your masking. Pull tape on gel after it's no longer sticky but before it's rock hard; some testing is required to hit the sweet spot. A razor and a sharp chisel help too; and a steady hand.

Just to make you drool:


https://festools-online.com/catalogs...U8ENg&q=567852


https://festools-online.com/490163-f...pad-ls130.html



https://festools-online.com/490780-f...it-ls-130.html


This Festool inline profile sander comes with a bunch of different profiles; also comes with foam blocks with can be cut to profile. You can stick a piece of grit to any profile, then chuck a foam blank into the sander and sand the surface until the blank matches the profile. Peel the grit off the work surface and stick some on the foam blank, and you have an instant custom profile which will come out dead fair every time. $$$ though!! And, for the record, nothing can completely replace all hand sanding. But this sure helps!
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Old 25-02-2017, 05:54   #14
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Re: Re-gelcoating my deck: Project thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by minaret View Post
Yeah don't stress too much on how much original gel you leave, when you start sanding it'll all make sense. If you're doing new gel everywhere, just 180 everything for prep. After you spot prime your repairs with gel, 180 the primer gel out too. For gel tape edges pull tape soon after shooting. Most painters apply masking first and then final tape on the edge over masking film or paper, so you can pull the edge tape and retape as many times as necessary without pulling all your masking. Pull tape on gel after it's no longer sticky but before it's rock hard; some testing is required to hit the sweet spot. A razor and a sharp chisel help too; and a steady hand.
More great info. Regarding masked areas and general working room, I need to create plan of attack for how many sections I'm going to need to divide the deck into that will allow me to spray and then pull tape. I'm thinking right now it's probably five; cockpit, coachroof, port side deck and coach sides, starboard side deck and coach sides, and bow. Doing the sides and bow all at once would mean no blends, and it's possible. Will figure it out when we get closer.

I have a few difficult areas to spray, back where the cockpit coaming meets the captain. I expect these are just going to be easier to brush on but we'll see how things go with the sprayer up to that point.

I'm going to do a few test panels with scrap, then do the removable panels (cockpit and propane locker hatches, cover over the companionway hatch). Then the cockpit. Should have a pretty good idea of limitations at that point.

Quote:
Originally Posted by minaret View Post
Just to make you drool:

https://festools-online.com/catalogs...U8ENg&q=567852

https://festools-online.com/490163-f...pad-ls130.html

https://festools-online.com/490780-f...it-ls-130.html

This Festool inline profile sander comes with a bunch of different profiles; also comes with foam blocks with can be cut to profile. You can stick a piece of grit to any profile, then chuck a foam blank into the sander and sand the surface until the blank matches the profile. Peel the grit off the work surface and stick some on the foam blank, and you have an instant custom profile which will come out dead fair every time. $$$ though!! And, for the record, nothing can completely replace all hand sanding. But this sure helps!
Yeah I already drooled over those, big time. I have a decent Makita electric RO with vac, but might pick up an air DA if the yard won't let me use one of theirs. As for more specialized sanders, it's not a big enough job and their benefit would be limited to just a few areas.

I'm of the mind that you buy the best tools you can, and in some cases, even for temporary use. In my experience you can unload a tool after you're done on Craig's list for 80% of it's cost if you didn't abuse it, which can make it work financially.
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Old 25-02-2017, 09:50   #15
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Re: Re-gelcoating my deck: Project thread

What about epoxy filler maybe with microballons to fillet after grinding out cracks?
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