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Old 13-11-2006, 12:42   #1
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Increasing Sail Plan and / or efficiency - Ideas?

Increasing Sail Plan and / or efficiency - Ideas?

This post is wayyyyyyyyy longer than I had intended, just trying to set out my thinking and give as much info as possible for comments in regard to increasing Sail Plan and / or efficiency.

A bit of history, I bought the Boat last year after lots of careful thought and she is exactly what I want for the next 10 years (or so?) and also exactly what I expected (she’s not of course perfect, but I am happy enough with the compromises).

This is not to say that she doesn’t need / could do with a few “Tweaks” – hence this post.

Part of the plan is to add a bit more sail power to her – I accept she will never be “Fast” – but bearing in mind the original owners manual says she can keep full sail until a Force 6 indicates to me that a bit of improvement is feasible!


(Note that the top of the Mainmast has been cropped by a few feet!)


At present she is perfectly OK for me over the next couple of years as she will be used mainly at the weekend for a couple of laps around the bay and then dropping the hook for lunch and a kip!, and also for the occasional trip to France / or another Channel Island for the weekend or even a week or so - where for both tidal and time reasons motoring / motorsailing has always been a large part of the plan. Of course she is a bit OTT for just this use…….. (A couple of sister ships have circumnavigated, and I think one got up to the Arctic Circle – no surprise, she IS a cracking sea boat)…….

BUT, a large part of the reason for buying her was to give me the option of just sailing away into the sunset (or drizzle!) in a few years time, at short notice without the aggro of selling whatever I had , then buying and then fitting out something suitable – at the moment I do not have any firm plans or dreams to do sail away (more a vague idea!) – but with me I know that I do have a tendency to just say “f#ck it” at short notice and go and do something! – but in the meantime I am content enough ashore for the next couple of years or so - but I would like to get her set up over the next couple of years so she would be more “user friendly” for a long trip, even if I never actually make the trip.

So, what I guess I am after is ideas / to bounce my ideas off folk for things I could do over the next few years to improve her sailing performance, whilst still maintaining her as simple to handle for 1 (+1) – preferably being stages I could build on.

Obviously cost is a factor, but as I am aiming to spread things over a few years and I view her as a “keeper” ideas do not have to be totally economic!! (as you will see below!).........basically I am still at the "Blue Sky" thinking stage!!

My present thoughts are:-

1) Adding a Folding / feathering Prop (At the moment I favour a KIWI prop – due to cost and simplicity, but I will look at the exact model further in due course).

2) Go and learn how to sail! (Being self taught / learnt from others since I was a kid but mainly on “slow” boats, where it is the case of “if it looks right and feels right and works, it probably is 90% right”, but I do get the feeling now and again that “if I pulled this bit of string in, and let that bit of string out” I would get another ½ knot – probably not the case, but who knows……….)

3) The Mizzen Sail – I should have “played” with this a lot more already, but basically I do not think it is doing much, apart from providing balance (she is a nicely balanced boat and easy to get her to sail herself). I am thinking that a fully battened Mizzen sail will not make a great deal of difference performance wise but would make sail handling a bit easier with a “Stack Pack” type sail cover.

4) Mizzen Sheet arrangements – it is fixed in one point, so I was wandering if adding a track on the aft deck (enough room, although out of choice I would prefer to keep it clear) would make any difference? I should also mention that the rigging for the Mizzen is a bit too light (so say 2 Surveyors, and I also think they are right) so this is also on the agenda. Anything else I should be / could be doing whilst at this? Another couple of foot on the mast / boom???!!

5) Mainsail – A Fully Battened mainsail is on the agenda, my (non technical!) understanding is that it should provide a bit more “oomph”, albeit that it seems that most of the drive is generated by the foresail as it would also make sail handling a bit easier with a “Stack Pack” type sail cover. And 3 lines of Slab Reefing points. Just in case. (at present she is roller reefing, so I do want to change this and the mainsail is fairly old).

6) Mainsail sheet arrangements – this is also fixed in one point (to the Mizzen mast), and because of the aft cabin (and no walkthrough!) it is not possible to fit a track where it would logically go – cos’ it would be straight across the aft cabin hatchway. Even with my limited (?) sailing ability I do already find this frustrating. I am thinking that I have 3 options, putting a track on the main coachroof, albeit that this means that it would be nigh on half way down the Boom or putting additional strongpoints (very!) port and starboard so that I do have some ability to move the boom across, albeit not a perfect solution. Or maybe some Heath Robinson type arrangement with pulleys and sheaves that could be fixed between the two new strongpoints, but I am not a big one for “fiddling around” – I prefer things set up and ready to go when I want them. Not sure what else my options are, if any??

7) Foresail – already on furling gear, could do with a new sail, but I am also thinking……….bowsprit! (partly cos’ I like them!), but not sure whether to go conventional cutter and effectively moving the existing forestay inboard or by moving the forestay forward onto the bowsprit (I am only thinking a couple of feet, or so) and staying with the one (slightly larger) foresail or by leaving the forestay where it is and using the bowsprit to hold a large fairly lightweight sail on furling gear for use in lighter winds, principally when on passage (rather than short tacking) so that the fact it will (probably?) need furling to tack is not a great concern. Of course if I am starting to add a bowsprit / move the forestay then I am also looking at changes to the shrouds (uncertain age, not original!, but safe to say at least 5 years old so a re-rig in a couple of years would perhaps be no bad thing anyway)……..so given all this my thoughts then start to turn to “what about adding a couple of feet to the mast!!” – of course if I was aiming to go down this route I would want to decide before buying a Fully Battened mainsail and possibly even I should need to at least consider doing the same for the mizzen to retain her balance. Adding a couple of feet to the mast is not I think something to be undertaken lightly (or cheaply!), although no doubt I should get a new mast, I thinking of an extension using a sleave………..

As I have said already, I am not intending to start on all this next week – just trying at the moment to decide / work out what I am aiming for over the next couple of years, so all comments – both positive and negative! – welcome. (apart from “buy a different boat”!).
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Old 13-11-2006, 13:38   #2
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The main thing is that you are thinking about it. I am by no means any sort of expert, and I know little about ketch/yawl trimming (what's a mizzen?! ), but here are a couple of thoughts:

1. Replacing a fixed point sheeting point for both main and mizzen is, in my opinion, a good thing. There is nothing wrong with a cabin top track. The ability to use the track (a.k.a. "traveller") instead of the sheet is an invaluable one.

2. The isea of a bowsprit is also a good one because it will allow you to use an asymmetrical spinnaker (a.k.a. "MPS")

3. Fully battened main (and mizzen) are always a good idea.

4. New (or newer) sails will always make a big difference. As sails age they tend to stretch, and usually that stretch is in all the wrong places. New sails will have a much better shape and will make a huge difference when sailing to windward.

5. Increasing the mast height is not, to my mind, a great idea. It is a very expensive exercise for a relatively small improvement in performance (I would expect that you would be able to get a new genoa, mainsail and mizzen sail for the cost of replacing your mast and associated standing rigging). Bear in mind that an increase in mast size will have an associated decrease in righting moment/stability.

I'm sure that there will be other opinions...
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Old 13-11-2006, 15:02   #3
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I would tend to agree with all the above except I think the bowsprit might not yield much for results but cost a great deal to do right. You can't make a cutter out of a boat that really isn't one. You could still fly a spinnaker without one too, but you could really screw up the boat trying to add one.

Modern sails and rigging would clearly give you a lot more fun and sailing ability and be your best return for the money you put in.

You still have the age of the boat to deal with and there may be some costly repairs you need to consider soon. Chain plates and standing rigging may be a problem already if not previously replaced. Through hulls and ports might need attention too. Things that leak or can break all would need a good going over.
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Old 13-11-2006, 18:14   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Weyalan
1. Replacing a fixed point sheeting point for both main and mizzen is, in my opinion, a good thing. There is nothing wrong with a cabin top track. The ability to use the track (a.k.a. "traveller") instead of the sheet is an invaluable one.

2. The isea of a bowsprit is also a good one because it will allow you to use an asymmetrical spinnaker (a.k.a. "MPS")

3. Fully battened main (and mizzen) are always a good idea.

4. New (or newer) sails will always make a big difference. As sails age they tend to stretch, and usually that stretch is in all the wrong places. New sails will have a much better shape and will make a huge difference when sailing to windward.

...
Gee Weyalan, have you been looking at multihulls and pinching ideas?

David I'm in agreeance on all as well. Look at spending a few extra $$ on sail cloth like a good Cruise lam or at least Pentax Dacron. Your boats a classic looker and i'd reckon she'd weigh a few pounds, so cheaper dacrons may not last long before they start to lose shape.

Your reputable sailmaker will be able to advise you better on this.

Dave
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Old 13-11-2006, 18:35   #5
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Originally Posted by cat man do
Gee Weyalan, have you been looking at multihulls and pinching ideas?
I know you are just stirring me but which of those ideas are you gonna claim as catamaran territory?
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Old 13-11-2006, 19:13   #6
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Possibly fully battened mains seing as they are really making a comeback in monos, but even I had 'em on my Y.W Diamond
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Old 13-11-2006, 19:16   #7
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Aloha David,
My last boat was a 35 LOD ketch with a 5 foot bowsprit. I had an aft cockpit and so the mainsheet was on a traveler across the cabin top. A very good arrangement and I would recommend it if it does not interfere with getting in and out of the main companionway. Seeing you current sail plane in the picture, your mizzen will provide very little power to weather and works best on a close reach, beam reach or broad reach. It does not help you much going downwind either because it blocks your main. Your headsails are your to weather sails and should be the best quality and build you can afford. In your case adding an inner forestay would not help your performance, adding a 3 or 4 foot bowsprit would but as said before it would be a major undertaking requiring sprit, whisker stays, bobstay, new forestay, cransiron and stem fitting. Then you'd have to look at how you would attach another forestay forward of your current forestay to your mast.
As said before you can't make a cutter out of a ketch unless you can move your mainmast quite a few feet aft, lengthen it and get rid of your mizzenmast. All these things require quite a bit of engineering and money. A ketch is designed to provide a great cruising platform with easy to handle sails of a moderate size. They are not designed to be fast and speed is a function of the length of your waterline.
Do you have and use a mizzen staysail? On a close to broad reach it will add loads of speed and another sail to play with.
Ask more questions if you are not certain what I'm talking about.
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Old 13-11-2006, 19:52   #8
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If you want more sail area you can do this most inexpensively by adding roach to the mainsail. Full battens make this possible. Roach is the area above an imaginary line from the end of the boom to the top of the mast.

The pic you posted had a 100% jib you can improve the sail area by getting a 125% to 155% jib. They still work on the roller furler but are harder to tack.

A bow spirit will change your center of effort and possibly change the balance of the boat I wouldn't reccomend this.

You can add a staysail but it won't make the boat a cutter rig (its the center of effort thing) There is alot to be said for adding travellers and they can be raised above the cabintops easily.

The best idea is to learn to race a bit. That will add more speed than most things.
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Old 14-11-2006, 12:38   #9
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Aloha again David,
I looked at your boat's profile again and I agree with a bit of roach in the main and full battens. That would help.
A mizzen staysail is a lightweight sail (same weight as a spinnaker) that is tacked near the base and windward of your mainmast, its head is blocked at the very top of your mizzenmast and it is sheeted through a block on your mizzen boom. It can be flown in winds to 15k but I wouldn't leave it up in any higher wind speeds. It must be dropped and tacks changed to either come about or jibe. It really is a fun sail.
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Old 14-11-2006, 14:46   #10
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Cheers Folks,

Interesting comments so far, given me a bit more to mull over.

Just for info, she is an old (ish!) boat (built 1970, designed early 60's), but the rest of her is fine (the model does have a few known faults, but the reason for buying this boat was that they had all been fixed already and very well) - I was actually quite happy that the sails and some of the rigging are older and are pretty much due with replacement (albeit still perfectly servicable), cos' it made the boat cheaper and allows me to fit exactly what I want and I know it's good stuff - I just have to decide "exactly what I want"!!


Quote:
Originally Posted by SkiprJohn
Aloha again David,
A mizzen staysail is a lightweight sail (same weight as a spinnaker) that is tacked near the base and windward of your mainmast, its head is blocked at the very top of your mizzenmast and it is sheeted through a block on your mizzen boom. It can be flown in winds to 15k but I wouldn't leave it up in any higher wind speeds. It must be dropped and tacks changed to either come about or jibe. It really is a fun sail.
Kind Regards,
JohnL


That'll be one of these then! (the image was Googled at random - but the Bowprit is about the same size as I was thinking). She doesn't have one - I agree it looks fun, but is it worth the hassle in practice?

"Replacing a fixed point sheeting point for both main and mizzen is, in my opinion, a good thing. There is nothing wrong with a cabin top track. The ability to use the track (a.k.a. "traveller") instead of the sheet is an invaluable one." - any second opinions on a Cabin top track?, bearing in mind it would be pretty much half way down the boom, would this have a significant impact on it's performance? (after my original post it did occur to me that a (Radarless!) Radar Arch type of affair to carry the track might just be feasible, but could involve raising the boom or continuously bashing my head - neither of which I am after as first choice!


"adding a 3 or 4 foot bowsprit would but as said before it would be a major undertaking requiring sprit, whisker stays, bobstay, new forestay, cransiron and stem fitting. Then you'd have to look at how you would attach another forestay forward of your current forestay to your mast" - I don't know all the words!, but I do know what you mean!! But, to be honest, I think she would suit a bowsprit - I appreciate not exactly the most rational basis for doing this!, but I figure if I will be replacing standing rigging anyway, then this gives me a "One off" opportunity to add the bowsprit. I guess I should ask "I am fitting a Bowsprit, what can I use if for?" ........just flying a kite? /an asymmetrical spinnaker?..........and holding the anchor!

I take the comments about turning her into a Cutter is not the answer - not even me is thinking of moving the mast back a few feet!!
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Old 14-11-2006, 16:03   #11
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Frankly, David, the boat looks to have quite a reasonable lot of sail area anyway. Unless you have plenty of crew on board, you probably don't want too many sails to have to deal with, 3 will probably be enough of a handful as it is! You will get a big performance improvement with new (or newer) sails that are well cut / shaped to suit your boat & rig. At the risk of being rude, if you are a less than seasoned sailor, you will probably get an equally big improvement with good trimming.

A cabin-top traveller is by no means uncommon. However, you will probably need to increase your main sheet block system to compensate for the additional loads resulting from having the main sheet attachment closer to the mast. It will probably be worth considering whther your boom section is stront enough to take the additional bending loads associated with moving the sdheeting point forward (although chances are the boom is built like the proverbial brick $h1thouse!).

The arrangement you describe of a "radarless radar arch" is often referred to as a "targa bar" and is not uncommon for housing a mainsheet traveller (Hunter us the arrangement). In my opinion, it looks ugly at the best of times, and would look pretty silly on a traditional ketch rig. I'm not entirely sure why you cannot put a traveller where your current mainsheet hard point is?
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Old 14-11-2006, 16:46   #12
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Aloha David,
I would never discourage someone from adding a bowsprit. I'm doing it. Just wanted you to know that there are a lot of pieces of gear to consider if you do decide to do it. If you want to know what problems I've encountered then please as specific questions.
Bowsprit - Great to hang an anchor on. Great to dive from. Great for sitting on and watching your bow cut throught the water. You can fly a much larger headsail. Caution - it may upset the center of effort versus the center of lateral resistance but if your boat has a heavy weather helm now then it may balance her out a bit. Once you have the sprit and the new forestay then you automatically have an inner.

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Old 14-11-2006, 17:14   #13
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I have a similar boat, but a bit bigger, and have been trough many of the same things, here are my thoughts, for what they are worth.

The folding or feathering prop is a big improvement in light air.

A traveler on the mizzen should not be a high priority. You will find that when you are using the mizzen you are usually sheeted in hard or all the way out. If you have room you might consider a vang, but many other things should be higher priority. I have never seen a mizzen traveler, which is not to say they do not exist :-)

Typically on a ketch the backstay for the mainmast is at a rather steep angle compared to a sloop, so a fully battened main might not really be able to give you the extra sail area you hope for. This is an area for a professional sailmaker to help work out the details. You might compromise and get a sail with the top one or two battens full and the rest "regular" length. You'll get most all of the handling advantages of the fully battened sail with far less cost and maintenance (you don't need fancy cars with this setup).

I fyou cna invent a way to fix a traveler to the main you are way ahead! I had the same problem you do, although my aft cabin does have a inside passageway. I installed a "bridge" traveler in which I can swing it up out of the way of the aft companion way while at anchor. Not idea for your setup however.

Add an asymetrical spinnaker and mizzen staysail! For off the wind sailing they combination is a real workhorse on a ketch!

I'd be very careful about adding a bowsprit! Assuming the original designer knew what he was doing, your rig balance can be messed up big time. This is definetly an area to get competant and technically qualified advice. Lots of people will know HOW to add a bowsprit, but the number who can really tell you the changes that will result are far fewer. Anyone who makes such a recommendation with out a great deal of detail on your current rig and hull configuration is not doing you a favor! Even if a good naval architect endorses the idea, this will be very expensive and difficult. I would imagine your money would be better spent elsewhere.

If you want the flexibilty in carrying head sails, consider a solant stay instead of a inner forestay.

Bill
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Old 26-11-2006, 10:51   #14
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I have been meaning to respond to this thread for a little while, and thanks a lot for the input - has given me plenty to ponder over.

Of course unsurprisingly I am not going to be making any changes to the boat based solely on comments received from folk on the internet - but you folks have pretty much confirmed what I knew already / advice I have recieved in the past........which I can basically summarise as "don't f#ck around with things too much"

Anyway, this is what I have decided. This week at least

Stage 1:-

Main Sail: The mast IS going to stay the same height so that means that I can go ahead with a fully battened mainsail with lazyjacks and a "stackpack" type sail cover. I will also be converting to slab reefing. (also at the moment all the lines are led to the mast foot, not back to the cockpit. I haven't decided whether to change this - the fixed windscreen makes this somewhat more complicated - but I figure no reason why it cannot be done later as I will not be doing anything major in the meantime that will required to be undone / sold on Ebay if I later decided to go down this route).

Stage 2:-

Mizzen Mast: Apart from new shrouds (they are presently too light) the only changes will be to a fully battened sail with lazyjacks and a "stackpack" type sail cover. Minimal performance difference, but just an expensive way to stow the sail a bit easier.

Stage 3:-

Propeller: Buy a Feathering Prop.


Stage 4:-

Staysail: buy one!


Stage 5

Main sheet track on the coachroof: I must confess that I didn't think that adding the main sheet track that far forward on the coachroof (pretty much half way down the boom) would be worthwhile. I have not quite confirmed to myself that it would in fact be worthwhile although I am leaning heavily towards this view as anything must be better than the present arrangement!, but this hesitancy is partly because it will be a fairly involved job! - otherwise it would also no doubt be a few stages earlier in my plans


Stage 6:-

Bowsprit, I still want one!, but I have effectively decided to "kick this into touch" for the time being. I will see how the above changes go and I may decide to do nothing............ or start thinking bowsprit again I may end up with a Solent Stay and a removable inner forestay or something with twin rollers like this appeals (today at least!).






I appreciate that the vessel above (a Saga 43) is somewhat different in style to a Seadog (30), but I reckon she would look ok with something like this - possibly in "f#ck off" chunky Galvanised Steel

But "Stage 6" will be a few years down the line and won't be considered essential kit until / if I seriously start to think about heading off into the WBY / CW&M (wide blue yonder / cold wet & miserable)
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Old 26-11-2006, 11:48   #15
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Thanks, David

You taught me something:
Quote:
Or maybe some Heath Robinson type arrangement with pulleys and sheaves that could be fixed between the two new strongpoints…
I didn't know this reference, until I found this Robinson artwork:


The American counterpart is undoubtedly Rube Goldberg.

Haven't we all jury-rigged a few things and thought to ourselves, "Ugly is beautiful"?

Fair Winds,
Jeff
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