cracks in keel top in bilge

[Buddy_Y]

Hi All:

I'm considering taking on a project boat, a Nordica 30 full keel. First though, one of the issues that I'm not certain how to interpret is that when the top of the keel is viewed through the sole, there is a series of cracks. Pic below. I'm not certain if this is a serious issue. The outside of the hull does not show any separation between the keel and the hull. (The keel has two rust spots, but they are not near the top.) The boat has been out of the water for years, but rainwater did indeed get inside and was allowed to stand for a time.

Any ideas if this is a serious issue?


Cheers,

Buddy_Y

[Cheechako]

Those are cool little boats.
My guess is it's just very thick brittle gel coat they sprayed or dumped in there to pretty it up. It cracks readily when thick and unsupported with glass. Not uncommon either. Not sure how to confirm that though.

[barnakiel]

There is not that much that can go wrong in a Nordica.


How does it look OUTSIDE ???


Can you grind off the paint / gelcoat and dirt ?It may be a crack in the paint system, it may be a crack in the shell (hull).


barnakiel (similar boat here)



How are Nordical ballast bolts fitted?

[Buddy_Y]

Originally Posted by barnakiel

There is not that much that can go wrong in a Nordica.


How does it look OUTSIDE ???


Can you grind off the paint / gelcoat and dirt ?It may be a crack in the paint system, it may be a crack in the shell (hull).


barnakiel (similar boat here)



How are Nordical ballast bolts fitted?

I actually couldn't see any ballast bolts -- the thing seems to lack a traditional bilge altogether. There's just a two-inch space under the fiberglass floor. Made me think that the keel isn't bolted on -- that it's built fused with the hull.

I'm not at the point where I could start grinding it. Not my boat yet. To make things trickier, the present owner is an older fellow not in the best of cognitive condition, and he's having trouble with questions.

[RaymondR]

Get a hole saw and electrlc drill and cut a core and see whats under there, could be loose steel ballast going rusty and swelling.

[Buddy_Y]

Originally Posted by RaymondR

Get a hole saw and electrlc drill and cut a core and see whats under there, could be loose steel ballast going rusty and swelling.

Gotta be honest, I didn't even know there was such a thing as loose steel ballast in a sailboat keel. Learning is fun! And frightening.

One big challenge I'm having is the terrible paucity of info on the net about the Nordica 30. There's basic sailboatdata.com stats and a mention of where it was manufactured, but no detailed info.

[pelagic4005]

Hi, rust marks suggest the steel ballast is exposed to moisture and corroding. It expands when it does. Is this an encapsulated or external keep. If it is encapsulated I would walk away. If exciting ernal there will be bolts which maybe corroded but will need removing

Good luck

Tim

[Buddy_Y]

Update: Based on Raymond's thought, i did some googling about steel in keels, and I have a new thought. The white surface that is cracked seemed to me, when I was tapping it, to be concrete. Now, I read that some full keel boats are concrete-encased steel. This would seem to gybe with some rust leaks on the outside of the keel. Pics below.

Perhaps it is concrete-encased steel, and both the cracks on the top and the weeping rust holes reflect that water has gotten inside and is making the steel rust and expand, hence cracking the concrete? Does that sound right?

If so, google shows me people debating this problem in other boats have two thoughts on fixing it. One, that it's a bitch of a thing, and that you have to drill it out and remove the steel etc. Two, you could just grind out the cracks / leak sources and seal them under the theory of no more water/air means no more corrosion.

Thoughts?

[pelagic4005]

You can't 'fix it' by covering it up or sealing it. If it has already expended it is probably a write off due to the cost of replacing the keel and ballast.

There is always another boat. I would never by a boat without a lead keel because of corrosion

[Buddy_Y]

Originally Posted by pelagic4005

You can't 'fix it' by covering it up or sealing it. If it has already expended it is probably a write off due to the cost of replacing the keel and ballast.

There is always another boat. I would never by a boat without a lead keel because of corrosion

Ouch. (BTW, sorry not to have noted that you thought of the steel core issue first.) So I guess that the rust leaking from the keel outside is proof positive that it's a steel cored keel?

[rbk]

Originally Posted by pelagic4005

You can't 'fix it' by covering it up or sealing it. If it has already expended it is probably a write off due to the cost of replacing the keel and ballast.

There is always another boat. I would never by a boat without a lead keel because of corrosion

What do you think holds the lead to the fibreglass hull on an external keel?

Thousands of boats with encapsulated keels have sailed the world for many years. There are very rare cases of encapsulated keels as there are next to none with enough straight iron in them to expand and crack fibreglass. Most are a mixture of pieces of steel or lead mixed with concrete or resin.

[RaymondR]

Originally Posted by Buddy_Y

Gotta be honest, I didn't even know there was such a thing as loose steel ballast in a sailboat keel. Learning is fun! And frightening.

One big challenge I'm having is the terrible paucity of info on the net about the Nordica 30. There's basic sailboatdata.com stats and a mention of where it was manufactured, but no detailed info.

One of the more common forms of steel ballast is "punchings". Rather than drill holes in beams a machine punches the hole and round pieces of steel of various diameters is produced.

My old steel boat had tons of these concreted into the keel using a slurry of cement mixed with monel cuttings to densify the slurry. The mist forward section was sealed and had loose punchings in it.

[Pete7]

Originally Posted by Buddy_Y

Two, you could just grind out the cracks / leak sources and seal them under the theory of no more water/air means no more corrosion. Thoughts?

So this boat has been out of the water for some years. Water has gained access to the interior during that time. You are located in Ontario and presumably the boat is nearby.

Does it get cold during the winter in Ontario? would rain water leaking down into the keel freeze during the winter. Would any fresh water entering the keel when the boat was last in the water freeze during the winters? Finally has the ballast turned to a completely rusty mush

Without taking an angle grinder to the inside of the hull and also opening up the rust stains on the outside, I don't see how you will know how bad it is. Thankfully no one has tried to fill and paint the outside to cover it up and get shot of the boat.

Pete

[Fore and Aft]

I have seen and repaired steel punchings in concrete slurry that had so badly expanded that the cabin floor had humped up in the middle! I forget the boat brand (She was around 35 feet) but what I do remember was hiring a jack hammer and removing all of the ballast. It was messy and hard work man handling a ton or two of ballast out of a yacht by hand. The biggest issue was the top of the concrete ballast had never been sealed properly. So when we put the new concrete/steel ballast back in we heavily glassed the top of the concrete. We used concrete/steel because of the low cost.
Cheers

[mvweebles]

Willard trawlers have a full keel with approximately 25% of their displacement in ballast, probably the highest percentage of ballast in a powerboat you'll find.

Ballast is indeed concrete with steel punching added as aggregate (aggregate greatly improves strength of concrete). It is extremely dense and hard stuff but can develop issues if left deeply submerged for a long period - years comes to mind. A few Willard owners have reported problems and have removed and replaced the ballast which involves getting a Hilti power hammer. A lot depends on access to the ballast - I would think access on a sailboat isn't great so a lot of the interior would need to be removed.

Attached Pic is of some removed ballast aboard my Willard 36 Weebles. There were no issues with the ballast other than I am having the forward stateroom reconfigured and removed and replaced about 700 lbs of ballast. It took two strong men about 2 days to get it out. I replaced with lead which is problem 3x more dense and gained a lot of space for a holding tank.

Peter