Boat "Flipping," Fiberglass Repair

[Azul]

A feathering prop or more fairing would be nice.

[Azul]

The Universal M25. It looks new under all the dust, the blessing of fresh water use. There is pretty nice access to the engine in the C30.

I blame Minaret for my affliction of enjoying rolling around in fiberglass dust wearing a Tyvek suit like a piece of flounder being dredged through flour. Reading about his projects makes us mere mortals think we can also fix stuff.

[Azul]

This doesn't look good. The shiny lead looks tempting to take to a metal recycling place, or I could make a zillion fishing sinkers and sell them on eBay.

[Azul]

From Evercoat's website, about sticky gelcoat: it isn't really sticky, like leaving a fingerprint sticky... just slightly tacky in some places. And acetone will take some of the surface off. It is definitely not as shiny as it should be, and I am not sure how it would react to sandpaper- probably just clog the grit.

COMMON PROBLEMS WITH POLYSTER RESIN APPLICATIONS

Problem: Gel coat is sticky all over after hardener has been mixed into the resin and proper cure time has elapsed.

CAUSE #1:

Incorrect mixing ratio was used when combining gel coat and hardener. Use 12 drops of hardener per ounce of resin; 11 cc of hardener per quart of resin or 40cc of hardener per gallon of resin.

CURE: Scrape off as much of the uncured gel coat as you can. You can use acetone to clean the surface of any residue of uncured gel coat. Follow with an application of properly mixed gel coat.

I cannot find any information as to whether it is possible to paint over improperly cured gelcoat with a primer then enamel.

[Terra Nova]

Originally Posted by Azul

...I have no way of knowing with certainty what type of resin was used, it was allegedly West System epoxy...

Originally Posted by minaret

You are planning on using incompatible materials. Stick with all poly finished with gel or all epoxy finished with paint...

Originally Posted by Azul

...I can take back all the West Systems stuff and be paid up again! And polyester resin is cheaper than epoxy...

The owner's penchant for hiring amateurs will likely cost him a very good lesson.

If the repair has been done with WEST epoxy, you are making a huge mistake by switching to polyester resin.

[Azul]

Originally Posted by Terra Nova

The owner's penchant for hiring amateurs will likely cost him a very good lesson.

If the repair has been done with WEST epoxy, you are making a huge mistake by switching to polyester resin.

I don't think you've been following this well. You are the "this is a POS I wouldn't work on" guy, true? We are talking about removing the entire repair and I have already demonstrated that it is acceptable practice per the West Systems website to put gelcoat over epoxy if I decide to stay with epoxy, it's just not what Minaret recommends- someone I trust. There just isn't the long term experience available with this technique. If he thinks the added strength of epoxy is not necessary for an adequate repair, then polyester is the way to go.

If the owner is to hire someone that fixes huge holes in sailboats on a daily basis, the quote will definitely be higher than the value of the boat would allow, not to mention he can't afford this route. There is always someone on this forum that tries to suggest that every sailboat repair be done in a high end boat yard at $100 per hour or puts down people that are trying to improve their skills.

I like it when people refer to me as an amateur, it just motivates me. Besides, if this gig doesn't work out I can always return to dancing on tables at the retirement home. It just doesn't pay like it used to.

[minaret]

Originally Posted by Azul

When Minaret speaks... people listen.

I have read testing on the West Systems site that states that gelcoat will bond to epoxy with the same adhesion that gelcoat bonds to filler material blah blah blah and that at least in shorter term testing in the real world it has performed fine even below the waterline. I'm guessing this is one of those controversial subjects, perhaps West Systems is over-encouraging use of their products. They are making a lot of money and that can influence testing.

Good news then. I can take back all the West Systems stuff and be paid up again! And polyester resin is cheaper than epoxy...

Details are important here, any other recommendations? Thanks about avoiding the duraglass, a lot of people near Lake Erie use it but I don't want to have to struggle needlessly with fairing in the summer heat. And there isn't a marine supply store staffed by ex-boat builders on every block like there is in Beaufort to ask questions. I can't find any, just paint stores. I have used Evercoat's product on smaller areas, is this OK to use on a larger scale? I'd love to have one of your Flexicat 33's but I've made a variety of homemade fairing boards and they will have to do.

What do you think is the best solution for the "sticky situation" with the gelcoat on the Scout? I'm sure someone else has run into this problem. Without having time to research it yet, I would think I could spray another coat of gelcoat on with wax additive and it would then have a nice finish. Or is this cooked and needs to come off or primed somehow and painted over? Priming and painting would be the cheapest fix and the interior gelcoat is OK so it would be functional.

Regarding the keel, it looks like the attachment point was "rattled" a little as is noted in the pictures. I would be worried about the keel bolts. I'll take a measurement from the keel to the deck on both sides and see if it is even.
The rudder escaped harm completely. It is remarkably designed as a lobster line catcher, with too large a gap.

As far as market value is concerned, it is easy to be overly optimistic about the price- it was one of my original points. I think he is looking at asking prices ($18K) and not selling prices. The "Atomic Bomb" is considered the second most valuable power for a C30 behind the Universal 25. It is my understanding that the vast majority of C30's are underpowered and the A4 and M-25 are the only adequately powered engines. Also, this C30 does have almost every recommended upgrade I have read about and all of the important ones. I still think the big moment of truth won't be going over budget fixing it, but rather finding out the vessel isn't worth nearly as much as the investment or that people are put off by the damage history. For an airplane, any damage history kills resale value no matter how well it is repaired. Perhaps it is similar for a holed sailboat.

Evercoat is a glazing putty, strictly for pinholes. Too thin for fairing and not strong enough. Use Rage. Stay away from Rage Extreme. Wipe your gel with acetone and clean rags till it's not sticky anymore, then guide coat and wet sand it 800-1500, then polish it. That is, of course, if you grind off all epoxy and switch to poly. Otherwise, you must glass and fair in epoxy and prime and paint the whole hull to finish.


Do a search here to educate yourself on the controversy of poly on epoxy.

[Terra Nova]

Originally Posted by Azul

I don't think you've been following this well. You are the "this is a POS I wouldn't work on" guy, true?...
There is always someone on this forum that tries to suggest that every sailboat repair be done in a high end boat yard at $100 per hour or puts down people that are trying to improve their skills...

I tried to give you sound advice--that this was a doomed project, from the start, and that you should RUN, not walk away--not to use a high-end boatyard and $100/hr help--that was your chip on your shoulder talking.

In one of your earlier posts you claimed that it would not be your fault that the owner will find himself upside-down, because you were "on the clock". Meaning, I suppose, that you didn't convince him that, by hiring you, he will have found the best possible way out of his present predicament. I applaud your learning new skills, just not at this guy's expense. But I guess someone has to be the one to teach him another lesson. Instead, it would be better to just tell him the truth.

Do whatever you want with the finish. But don't apply polyester repairs over previous epoxy repairs.

[valhalla360]

I would suggest stopping and pricing out what it will cost for you to do the job right (estimate high to cover yourself and spell out what is and is not included). Go to him and let him know that you are concerned and what you think the costs will be. Put it in writing and get a response from him in writing. Then if he comes back you can point to his earlier agreement.

My concern would be that it's an opened ended job with no cost estimate. A couple hundred here and there but eventually, he starts wondering why the cost keeps climbing and eventualy turns on you.

[minaret]

Originally Posted by valhalla360

I would suggest stopping and pricing out what it will cost for you to do the job right (estimate high to cover yourself and spell out what is and is not included). Go to him and let him know that you are concerned and what you think the costs will be. Put it in writing and get a response from him in writing. Then if he comes back you can point to his earlier agreement.

My concern would be that it's an opened ended job with no cost estimate. A couple hundred here and there but eventually, he starts wondering why the cost keeps climbing and eventualy turns on you.

In boat building school, I took a fairly long course on making marine repair estimates. They spent a lot of time teaching us to figure out every penny of expenditure. Then at the end, they told us to just double that figure. Because, it's a boat. In practice, in the many years since, I've found tripling it is much wiser...

[Azul]

The sailboat repair is on hold while I try to get the Scout 18's finish in a condition it might sell. Sure enough, with about 4 hours of scrubbing on each side of the boat with acetone the entire new sticky layer of gelcoat that was sprayed on dissolved off. Tedious, as even doing it in the cool of the day the acetone would start to dry in a few seconds and the gelcoat would turn into a sticky mess. Went through a couple boxes of rags. Underneath the gelcoat, there were numerous areas where someone had attempted to repair small scuffs and scratches by spraying gelcoat over the damage without repairing it, so the damage just printed through the gelcoat. Further, since they didn't wet sand or compound the original gelcoat, the new gelcoat ordered from Scout was much lighter and a poor match. As Minaret has pointed out in his gelcoat matching seminars, you have to get the original gelcoat in the best possible condition before you try to match it.

If you are considering buying gelcoat from your boat's builder, I think you are better off buying white gelcoat from US Composites along with a pigment sampler and mixing your own. It is far cheaper and if you use Minaret's mylar tip you will get a much better match.

Below is a picture from the sailboat where the lamination was burned completely through by oversanding a thin lamination, then slathered with bondo. That is an actual hole in the lamination under the bondo which has been sanded off, the remains of which can be seen next to the hole. This whole mess is going to be ground off leaving a 5'x18" hole and redone.

Also, there are pictures of the gelcoat repairs of the Scout hiding under the sticky gelcoat, when they didn't match someone decided to just spray the whole hull (without hardener.) You can see an area of a trial of wet sanding the old gel coat and how much whiter it is after sanding.

[minaret]

Originally Posted by Azul

The sailboat repair is on hold while I try to get the Scout 18's finish in a condition it might sell. Sure enough, with about 4 hours of scrubbing on each side of the boat with acetone the entire new sticky layer of gelcoat that was sprayed on dissolved off. Tedious, as even doing it in the cool of the day the acetone would start to dry in a few seconds and the gelcoat would turn into a sticky mess. Went through a couple boxes of rags. Underneath the gelcoat, there were numerous areas where someone had attempted to repair small scuffs and scratches by spraying gelcoat over the damage without repairing it, so the damage just printed through the gelcoat. Further, since they didn't wet sand or compound the original gelcoat, the new gelcoat ordered from Scout was much lighter and a poor match. As Minaret has pointed out in his gelcoat matching seminars, you have to get the original gelcoat in the best possible condition before you try to match it.

If you are considering buying gelcoat from your boat's builder, I think you are better off buying white gelcoat from US Composites along with a pigment sampler and mixing your own. It is far cheaper and if you use Minaret's mylar tip you will get a much better match.

Below is a picture from the sailboat where the lamination was burned completely through by oversanding a thin lamination, then slathered with bondo. That is an actual hole in the lamination under the bondo which has been sanded off, the remains of which can be seen next to the hole. This whole mess is going to be ground off leaving a 5'x18" hole and redone.

Also, there are pictures of the gelcoat repairs of the Scout hiding under the sticky gelcoat, when they didn't match someone decided to just spray the whole hull (without hardener.) You can see an area of a trial of wet sanding the old gel coat and how much whiter it is after sanding.

I hate cleaning up other peoples messes.


But I must confess, I did that once too. Back in the old days, when I was working in a production facility and running the spray booth (and spraying six molds a day by myself), I forgot to catalyze a full pot of gel. Left half a mold all sticky. The boss was so PO'd the next morning he tried to pour a gallon jug of catalyst over it hoping it would cure (dumbass!), and I got to clean up the mess. No fun!


Good luck color matching, and don't over catalyze. 2% max.


PS: Those gel repairs not only don't match, they have "halo", a sure sign of poor prep. Sand them all the way off before shooting over them, or you may experience alligation. Always prep for gel with 400.

[colemj]

HeHe, I don't think there is anyone who has worked with fiberglass for a while who has not forgotten to catalyze a batch at some point - or had a batch light off because of catalyzing twice. Not as easy to forget with epoxy, but easier with polyester and very easy with gelcoat.

Glad to know even the pros do it.

Mark

[minaret]

Originally Posted by colemj

HeHe, I don't think there is anyone who has worked with fiberglass for a while who has not forgotten to catalyze a batch at some point - or had a batch light off because of catalyzing twice. Not as easy to forget with epoxy, but easier with polyester and very easy with gelcoat.

Glad to know even the pros do it.

Mark

Yes, in the yard we use catalyst with a red dye in it to be sure. Necessary with large crews on big jobs. Obviously, you can't do that with gel though. And I personally laugh at the dye too, since poly resin changes color when catalyzed anyhow. I can tell at a glance if it's catalyzed or not. Fortunately, uncatalyzed gel is not as big a deal as uncatalyzed resin in the middle of a layup, which I have also seen done.

[Azul]

After stripping the sticky gelcoat from the port side of the Scout and starting on the transom, the owner suggested I try lacquer thinner instead of acetone to dissolve the unhardened gelcoat. It works significantly better as it is "medium fast drying" instead of "fast drying."

The original gelcoat under the sticky gelcoat is a mess. It is a wikipedia of what not to do to maintain or repair gelcoat... massive halos, blisters, alligatoring, poor color matching, poor filling and bad prep sanding work under the sprayed gelcoat for starters.

Got some SEM guide coat in a can, it also comes in a container with a pad, and in different colors but all the paint shop had was black. One can left. You mist it on (some people spray it on thick like a layer of paint,) let it dry then scratch it off with something like a 16 inch neoprene Durablock ($30) by holding it in the long axis of the hull but pushing it at 45 degree angles in an X pattern. High spots on a white hull will be really white with a black outline and low spots will be black with a white outline. It also shows subtle defects quite clearly. See the scratches in the guide coat? That's what 180 grit does to your finish. I tried finer grits but the finish needed major re-leveling. And you have to go through all the step grades up to at least 1000 grit before heavy duty rubbing compound will take the sanding scratches out, then polish takes the compound swirls out. Time consuming.

The results from the guide coat were ghastly. Lots of sanding and two more light guide coats later the hull was quite homogenous but the areas of alligatoring were (surprise!) burned through (note that alligatoring is usually caused by spraying too thin a layer of gelcoat) and will have to be resprayed with gelcoat. Or maybe I will tip and roll it and give up on the gelcoat altogether.

Check out what acetone did to a cheap pair of "chemical resistant gloves."

Costs thus far for supplies, working on the sailboat and then the Scout are about $800.