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Old 10-10-2011, 08:21   #1
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Volvo 2002 - Help Needed

To start - this is a great forum, I have been reading for a while, and this is my first post.

In spite of the advice to not buy a boat with a volvo 2002 engine I bought a 1986 Kirie Elite 32 with a volvo 2002.

It is a wonderfull sailing boat.

A good thing because I'm having some problems with this engine.


Here is my tale of woe.

1986 Volvo Pent 2002 FL2277 in a Elite 32 sailboat

Problem description

To start the motor the throttle must be placed in the 1/3 advanced position and the stop lever lifted 3 times
(from reading this forum I beleive this is normal)

The starter is engaged and the engine proceeds start to rough idle aprox 800-1000 rpm. While belching out black soot upon the water and black smoke into the air
(not normal )

Now the questions begin -

The throttle can be advanced with to the 2/3 position and beyond no change in RPM

With the throttle in the 2/3 position one pull on the engine stop cable will allow the engine RPM to climb to 2500 RPM.

The throttle can now be fully advanced and 3300 rpm achieved.

Prodigious amounts of black and blue white smoke now fill the air – a real attention getter.

The "fun" part of this is the stop cable in in a locker which needs to be left open to perform this manver.

Watching the smoke an me dance around the throttle opening and closing the locker is also a "good show" to all aboard.

Ok the first question.

Why does pulling the stop lever allow the RPM to climb?

How can I get a normal throttle responce?


History

When buying the boat I looked into the repair records of teh previous owner.
He never had problems with the engine. In his has summer of ownership the engine started running ok but when the shop told him one of the injectors was rising out of the head so the head had to be send out so the sleeve could be replaced. The head was "re manufactured" I'll assume this meant a valve job too. This was done over the winter.
As far as I can tell the injector pumps were not removed no intentional change to any timing settings made.

-- My problems began.

After launching and observing this engine operate the boat immeately went back for to the shop.

The intake and exhaust were checked for blockages, all fuel filers replaced, the lift pump cleaned, both injectors and return line replaced, the valve adjustment was rechecked, and the throttle regulation box opened and all rods checked for free movement.

A compression test showed only 270 lb compression in both cylinders.

This was the only problem found ? I brought it to s second mechanic.

He repeated a diagnostic and again only found low compression.

This makes three of us that at now stumped.

Why is the motor "dumping fuel" ?

A extended run under load did not improve the situation. After 60 minutes at full throttle the engine accumulted aproximatly 1qt of fuel in the oil. Of course and oil change was done after this observation.


Repair Shop Diagnosis

The only explanation put forward was the rings are bad .

Due to the age of the motor it should be replaced. From reading this forum's opionion of this motor that appears to be sound advice anyway, but there have been some sailors with good volvo experiences.

How shoudl I to end this ordeal/adventure ?


This has become a real head banding mystery to me.

It does a not make sense that bad rings would produce such dramatic incomplete combustion products to exit through the exhaust.

I also cannot understand the relationship between the stop cable activation and RPM increase.

Fuel in the crankcase could be rings but with such excessive fuel in the cylinder could this be a secondary observation.


Does anyone have any insights into what could be causing this condition and how to solve it ?
Does anyone have a good replacement motor to sell ?
Does anyone know of anyone who does ?

Thanks for reading my story.

CaptnJim
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Old 10-10-2011, 18:54   #2
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Re: Volvo 2002 - Help Needed

Do you have an operators manual?
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Old 16-10-2011, 14:33   #3
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Re: Volvo 2002 - Help Needed

I have the workshop manual, parts schemtics plus one version of the owners manual.

The owners manualappears to confirm the cold start procedure -advance throttle pull stop lever and crank procedure, not much else.

The shop manual shows me all the steps to disassemble the motor but does not "connect the dots" very well, any adjustments to the fuel pumps or injectors appear to be made with shims.

The schemtics of the "fuel regulation" system shows a govenor and forked slide arm which look interesting, all the timing adjustments look like they are set by gear alignment behind a timing cover.

any idea of what could have gone out of adjustment?

(did I misinterpret your question, were you offering operaters manual)

-- any hints would be appreciated.
..
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Old 16-10-2011, 15:09   #4
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Re: Volvo 2002 - Help Needed

Hint...Friend with a Volvo 2002 cured his Volvo performance issues by installing a new Yanmar 3YM30. Hope this helped
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Old 16-10-2011, 19:29   #5
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Re: Volvo 2002 - Help Needed

Low compression means unburned fuel going out the exhaust.....some leaks past the bad rings into the engine oil
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Old 18-10-2011, 22:55   #6
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Re: Volvo 2002 - Help Needed

It looks like I may have half the problem solved - and will try to contribute my results so others may enjoy it.

it appears that by tighting the stop cable was what was required to acheive a linear throttle responce.

The way I can to this solution is as follows

I advanced the throttle to a 2/3 position then when to the engine compartment and manually moved the stop cable back until I felt and heard a soft "click" - the RPM increased. I tightened the cable to this point.

Now I can start the engine and advance the rpm with the throttle lever as it should work. In neutral the RPMs can reach 3600 RPM, does not shake and appears smooth.

I did not find this is the manual, but like the start procedure it is problably well known to the mythical "volvo" guru.

- on to the next thing -

There is still black smoke but it may be getting better.

The next probem is to increase the RPM under load as I can only acheive between 2-2.5k in gear.

It is confirmed that I have low compression, only 270lbs.

Maybe a good dose of a oil stabilizer like Lucas may help?

-- still looking for ideas --

CaptnJim
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Old 22-12-2011, 22:20   #7
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Re: Volvo 2002 - Help Needed

Are you in the Annapolis area by any chance, Capt. Jim?
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Old 23-12-2011, 07:24   #8
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Re: Volvo 2002 - Help Needed

What kind of compression tester did the "mechanic" use?
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Old 24-12-2011, 07:57   #9
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Re: Volvo 2002 - Help Needed

Chief Engineer,

I finally obtained an operators manual, no help there

I'm not sure the type of tester used. The report was confirmed by two independant shops. This hopfully means two gauges even if not different types were used.

If I need to probe deeper, what question should I ask of the person who ran the test?


speedoo,

I am in the NY area sailing on the Hudson and Long Island Sound.

I'm hearing all the good Volvo diesel shops are in the Annapolis area. True ?

As a next step I'm considering sending my injectors and injection pumps out for professional testing to one of them.

Can you reccomend one. Any idea what they charge to test 2 injectors and 2 injection pumps.

------

So far I have a number reccomendations from get the injectors and pumps tested to ,redo the head gasket, to the most commom -- thow it out and buy a new yanmar - or - buy a kubota (beta marine).

I'm not considering a new engine $9k at this time but I am considering a used volvo 2003 I saw for sale $3K.


Deep down I beleive there is more right with my current engine than wrong, so I'm still rearching for mechanical guidance.


CatpnJim
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Old 24-12-2011, 09:51   #10
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Re: Volvo 2002 - Help Needed

CatpnJim..

Everyone says Dick Vosbury is an excellent Volvo man in Annapolis, so I would contact him, but he's off until 1/2/12. He will be doing some work on a 2002 that I have down there. It will be my first experience with him so I will find out how good he is.

I am in NYC and the only diesel guy I have heard anything good about in our area is Sound Marine Diesel, (860) 666-2184. I think in the Hartford, CT area. Have you tried them?
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Old 24-12-2011, 09:59   #11
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Re: Volvo 2002 - Help Needed

I know you don't want to hear this but the only way to fix Volvo 2000 series engines is to replace them. Been there done that. Tried all the Volvo guys from Toronto to FL. Finally replaced with a Yanmar.
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Old 24-12-2011, 10:47   #12
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Re: Volvo 2002 - Help Needed

The black smoke is to much fuel, low compression and all of the fuel will not burn, it washes down the cylinder walls and ends up in the oil pan and at this point has washed the cylinder wall of any lubrication. It could be a cracked or worn out set of rings, to allow the blow by thus reducing the compression.

Since it did not have this problem before I would look in to what was done when the problem reared it's ugly head. you could be losing some compression to a bad valve, a bad valve job or a valve that was put back in the wrong hole in the head. ie. the exhaust valves were not put int the original cylinder.
engine power is made in the cylinder head.

Did either shop do a leak test when they did the compression test? This is to see what cylinder is leaking the compression and where it is leaking to.

It sounds like it is the piston rings but without doing a leak down test I would not guarantee it because you mentioned there was work done to the cylinder head.

click this link and you will see how important a leak test is, they are easy to do and will find your pressure problem without mickey mouse guess work.

Leakdown tests for car engine cylinder compression problems

This is my first post I have been a forum stalker for months, I hate to see someone get ripped off.

Here is a quick way of looking at what both "repair shops" did.

they took your blood pressure, did an ekg and sent you on your way without doing one of the most important diagnostic procedures. It was yup you have a problem and this is a list of what it could be, not what the problem IS.

Good luck, it's not so bad you still have sheets you can fill.
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Old 24-12-2011, 18:52   #13
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Re: Volvo 2002 - Help Needed

Factory psi should be 285-355 psi.

If both cyliders are the same, I would suspect headgasket.

270 is on the low side....engine will be hard to start, when it worms up rings expand.

Is there any history of ether being used?
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Old 25-12-2011, 07:51   #14
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Re: Volvo 2002 - Help Needed

captainbri,

The both shops I worked with I asked then to do a leak down test. One barely knew what I was stalking about, which totally pissed me off as he was also aragant about this problem not being his faullt, after doing the head work for the previous owner.

I had him his ranson an liberated the boat from hos shop never to return again.

The second shop other appeare dto have a better grasp on engine repair told me they did not have the proper adapter to do this test on my engine.

I tought you could presurize the cyl with compressed air and listen for the air leak, guess they did not have a adapter to thread into the injector hole.

They did have the right tools to quote me a new yanmar




Chief Engineer,

The surveyor did use ether to try to start the enginge, as he did not know the "proper" volvo start up procedure.

I watched the engine did almost start to run, no black smoke was present.

Please dont tell me this could have blown the head gasket.

I really want to blame the previous mechanic for this problem

---

True fuel is getting into the oil at the rate of 1 qt per hour. I have been changin the oil every operating hour to try to preserve the engine. Four times in all 1 hour home, one hour to the 2nd repair shop, 1 hour home again, 1 hour to the winter haul out.


As the head gasket was on of the things replaced during the last service this is a likely problem candidate. If the ether did not cause a problem.

Both cyl are equally low with no history of this problem. The injectors are new and the injector pumps never disturbed also pointing to the head gasket as a possible cause.

In my gas engine brain when a head gasket goes you get oil in the radiator and water in the oil, the dreaded oiil milk shake.

I'm quickly admit working on a diesel is a bit new to me.

Before I go order parts for head R&R please share a bit more of your thoughts on the head gasket problem.

Do you has any quick tests or ideas how I can confirm the head gasket is blown ?


Thanks again,


CaptnJim
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Old 25-12-2011, 09:31   #15
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Re: Volvo 2002 - Help Needed

most of the time you will get gas / fuel in the oil depending on where the leak is on a vehicle with a radiator the radiator will over pressurize.

the head could be torqued wrong or warped, on our racing engines we ringed the head and used copper head gaskets, 700 hp on my daily driver was fun.

here is what you can do, pull the head you will see where the head gasket is wet if it is a warped head or a blown gasket if so have the head milled just enough to remove the warp, and when you are pulling it apart you will notice if one or more bolts is not torqued tight to specs and any bolt that goes into a water jacket should have a small amount of high temp silicone it. bring the head to a machine shop and they can check for cracks and make sure it is straight.

wish I was in your area we could find the problem and know what way to go in an hour or less. or you can sail to Thailand and ill get it done for you

good luck
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