Need to by new diesel inboard, what one?

[dmalcol1]

Here is a link to Beta Marine USA forum.

Beta Marine Engines - Beta Marine Engines

I used this site to get valuable information before re-powering a Corbin-39 24000lb Mono hull. Ended up with a Nanni 40 hp also Kabota engine that had a RPM that matched my existing transmission prop setup.

We have 2.37 trans ratio and 18/14 prop this gives vessel hull speed of 8.5kn at 2800 RPM.

[Crazer]

You've got a lot of good advice here. The issue of turbo vs naturally aspirated is completely academic since, as has been said, you're wasting your money if you buy bigger than 60 hp for a 22K lb vessel with a 20 inch prop. For the record, there's not really anything simpler than a turbocharger and with a sailboat the only real problem is carbon buildup from a lack of use/use at low RPMs, so I don't really accept that it "adds complexity" in any way.

[Niagara Les]

Originally Posted by Stu Jackson

Please help me understand this phenomenon:

Why are people seemingly surprised that their engine starts and is reliable?

Mine starts all the time, just like my cars do.

I would expect nothing less.

I read this often on boating forums. Once, at a friend's dock, preparing to leave, I started the engine, and my friend said: "Oh, that's cool, it started right away." I asked him, "Doesn't yours?" "Not all the time," he said.

I don't get it.

What's the deal here?

This, really, is a serious question, that I've been meaning to ask for quite some time, thanks.

I think you hit the nail on the head when you said, "Mine starts all the time, just like my cars do"
I'd like to see a ratio comparison - 30 year old boats to 5 year old boats on the water, vs 30 year old cars to 5 year old cars on the road. I think you're going to find a lot more 30 year old boats than cars doing what they are intended to do.

Speaking as a guy that makes a living in the auto-repair industry, it is a bit of a miracle when a 30 year old car functions as intended for more than a couple months at a time.
The biggest contributor to the problem is just that- 30 year old machines under the hood, and the "normal" problems that plague them.

Knowing all of this, I should also mention- one of the features that attracted us to our 38 year old boat, was the nice new shiny Beta under the hood (I don't want to fix said machine on the weekends, rather be sailing). Beta has been great so far, loving the built in oil change pump as I change it more often that the average perhaps.


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[Jim Cate]

For the record, there's not really anything simpler than a turbocharger

Umm... how about the same engine without the turbo? That seems simpler to me!

There have been a number of threads here on the issues of running marine diesels at low power settings, and the consensus is that it isn't the best practice. With the use of a overly powerful turbo engine in the typical sailing vessel application, there will likely be extensive periods of low rpm, low hp usage... I know even with my conservatively low powered (43 hp, 46 ft, 12 tons) yacht, I run it well below the recommended 75-85% of max output nearly ALL the time.If my engine was the oft recommended 75-80 hp turbo that one sees in new boats of this size, the situation would be far worse, and carboned up turbo blades would not be too surprising.

The other factor that I would consider in choosing a new engine (as others have mentioned) is NO ELECTRONICS need apply! Seriously, having an engine that absolutely will not run if there is an electronic fault, is a complete fail in my book. The common rail diesel is a fantastic machine compared to our kinda primitive old mechanical injection models. More efficient, smoother, quieter... really nice. But, if the black box turns grey one day, you are stuffed until you somehow get it into the clutches of a mechanic trained and equipped by that specific manufacturer. This is not something I would take cruising. Period.

Jim

[denverd0n]

Originally Posted by Jim Cate

...how about the same engine without the turbo? That seems simpler to me!

And less expensive! I have owned turbos before. They have their place. But I do not think that a sailboat is the place for them. There is more to go wrong, and when anything does go wrong, it costs twice as much to fix.

In an airplane? Great. In a car that is driven routinely at high altitude. Okay. In a sailboat? Nope. Not for me.

[Hylas 49 Hope]

"Starts every time or starts immediately". I'm not so surprised but rather very happy about that situation. Let's face it....not everything on a boat works every time or doesn't take some tweaking to get it to operate correctly.

Our engine being reliable, yes that's the way it should be. I'm just acknowledging that fact and happy it's not one of the many systems that require a lot of attention. Regular maintenance equals reliable operation, I'm dedicated to provide that care to our Yanmar.

[Blue Crab]

Couple things: I need it for a short term purpose. Cap, NSA is watching.

I've never heard a bad word about Beta.

My Yanmar 2GM is great and I'm still happily surprised when it starts. But it takes 3 or 4 cranks. Is this what you guys are calling "immediately?"

[barnakiel]

You have a big boat, weight does not count that much so ... sure a Bukh would not fit in?

They are fine quality and last well. Low vibration too.

BTW A friend here got a new Beta (small one, only 16 hp) and I have had a very good long look. Definitely on par with Yanmar. I could opt for Beta for my own boat.

b.

[robert sailor]

One plus on the Beta is a fairly flat torque curve and reaching full power at lower rpm than a Yanmar. I was concerned about running our engine at lower rpm but a Stan at Beta told me that once properly broken in you can run that engine at any rpm without concern.

[barnakiel]

What is the issue with avoiding lower revs? Is it similar to avoiding low load?

I thought if the load is OK then the lower revs do not have any negative impact.

b.

[hamburking]

Originally Posted by Stu Jackson

Please help me understand this phenomenon:

Why are people seemingly surprised that their engine starts and is reliable?
Mine starts all the time, just like my cars do.
I would expect nothing less.
I don't get it.
What's the deal here?

My boat engines have been 30-40 years old. I doubt you drive a 40 year old car? I had a 45 year old atomic 4 engine. I should have been surprised it actually started at all! Plus, I keep my engine in a dark, damp place. I shake it around a lot, and tip it over quite a bit too.

If you have ever been in the situation where your engine would not start, or quit while running, it shakes your confidence in that machine. There are hundreds of moving parts...it just takes one to fail...not even break, just bend enough to let in some air. Some parts are rubber...you know they are going to break eventually. I freeze my boat every winter...maybe 20 or 30 thaw freeze cycles over the winter. That can't be good.

One time, spiders had a party in the fuel tank vent, clogging the vent. 10 minutes after starting the engine, the fuel tank was in vacuum, and the engine quit. It took me about 20 minutes to figure it out...meanwhile, who sails the boat or watches my kids? Lucky for me, there was sea room and good conditions.

Thats just one simple thing that could stop your engine.
Have you checked for spiders in your fuel vent lately?

[a64pilot]

Originally Posted by Blue Crab

Couple things: I need it for a short term purpose. Cap, NSA is watching.

I've never heard a bad word about Beta.

My Yanmar 2GM is great and I'm still happily surprised when it starts. But it takes 3 or 4 cranks. Is this what you guys are calling "immediately?"

Not really, assuming warm weather, my Yanmar starts like my cars, that is about as quick as you can release the key it's running.
Slower starting can be a function of lower compression, cold weather, malfunctioning glow plugs if you have them, dirty fuel injectors, air if the fuel and just engine design.
My JD410 Backhoe had to turn a few revolutions before it would start, it would usually pick up one cylinder, then quickly the rest. They were all that way, and the JD 410 has a reputation of being a very good motor, just the way they are, nothing wrong with it.

[japarker11]

Originally Posted by denverd0n

And less expensive! I have owned turbos before. They have their place. But I do not think that a sailboat is the place for them. There is more to go wrong, and when anything does go wrong, it costs twice as much to fix.

In an airplane? Great. In a car that is driven routinely at high altitude. Okay. In a sailboat? Nope. Not for me.

By way of the previous owner, we have put 1000 hours on one of those Yanmar 75 turbos in the last two years. It really is a 55 Hp continuous rating. The 75 Hp output is recommended for less than one hour. In our use of it, usually a 40 knot headwind steep chop, it was difficult keeping the prop attached effectively as it hobby horsed. In those conditions, it did provide a bit of confidence. Worth the expense, probably not.

I will have to tout the fuel burn however. Stay at modest boost levels (2000 to 2400 rpm) and you will beat the normally aspirated by 20 % (less than 1 gph @ 7 kn).

Like Jim, anything marine that had an ECU, Engine Control Module, should be suspect. Our solution was.......a bigger dink.

The marinization parts for all marine diesel brands are expensive whether it be Beta, Westerbeke, Cummins/ Onan, Kohler, Volvo. .....unfortunately Yanmar applies the same pricing levels to non-marine parts.

On land, Kubota has no equal in small displacement diesels. Would not hesitate in a Beta.

Having to live with the decisions of others in repowering an 80's era mono once you make the choice, start concentrating on the install. Start with the tanks and filtration systems. Next verify the integrity of thru- hull, seacock, strainer and vented loop. Proceed to the exhaust lift muffler. While you are this far, look at the12V electrical system and see if high output alternators and/or inverted upgrades are needed.

And remember, most yards are staffed and equipped to repower 500 Hp stinkpots. Ragboats are a pita.

This response is fueled by dealing with the last issues of an incompetent repower and genset install.

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[rjdives]

When it came time to re power our vessel, the old 60 hp Perkins was worn out with just over 2k hours. I looked at all the brands and knew I wanted a Kubuta base engine. Looked hard at Bata but went with Nanni. Settled on the N4 60, 60hp turbocharged tier 3. This is a very clean burning and quite with cruising speed at 2400 rpm. Engine was almost 100lbs lighter then the Perkins and very easy to work on. It's a turbo so you have to work it and she will run all day at cruising speed at .75 gph or less.


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