Beware new yanmars

[SailRedemption]

Originally Posted by NCboatrx

Boatyardboy. I suggest that refrain from commenting where you obviously don't have the specialized knowledge. I cannot speak for Yanmar or Perkins but you are totally wrong with saying (or even hinting) that Beta Marine are supplying reman engines. All of our engines are brand new Kubota diesels that have been tested and approved by the EPA for marine use. This testing and approval cost us a lot of money and time to get.
Stanley Feigenbaum
Beta Marine US Ltd.

Relax chief, my apologies.

[a64pilot]

FIAT , Fix It Again Tony[emoji3]


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[Cheechako]

So.... don't all manufacturers have to modernize the diesel to meet EPA criteria? Do any of them not have black boxes? Beta?
While I would prefer to not have a black box controlling my destiny if out sailing the world....It makes one wonder if more is being made of this than the reality?
All the autos now days have black box controls and the engines are superior in reliability to old engines... I wonder if time will prove the same in diesels...?

[Zai]

Originally Posted by Dustybilges

Having just ordered a new yanmar 4jh diesel be advised that this is now an electronically controlled engine . Any number of electrical glitches or issues can and will disable this engine . No amount of tinkering or expert mechanicing will make it run again. It is loaded with sensors and all manner of electrical and electronic stuff . I haven't found a dealer / mechanic yet who has any idea how to work on one of these things . I called mack boring to see if I could carry a spare ecu and they told me absolutely not - the only way to deal with a problem is to remove the ecu and send it to them and they would replace and re-program it and send it back ,then if you can find a factory trained yanmar guy with a laptop and software he can get you going again . Maybe . Do you need to reprogram the ecu to replace any one of the many sensors whose failure will leave you engineless ? Expense ( major ) and time ( major ) aside this is just not acceptable for anyone who plans on traveling more than a few miles from a yanmar tech . Hit by lightning ? Forget about using your engine afterwards . I've read about ecu 's that were fried because the key switch was turned off before the stop switch . Is a bad ground enough to fry your ecu in the middle of no- where ?Several years ago I was at Hinckleys in Maine and a freshly launched jet boat wouldn't start . Nada . There wasn't a mechanic there , and there were some top notch mechanics , that could get a peep out of that engine . They had to fly in a yanmar tech to fix the electronics . If you search the sailing / cruising forums on line you will encounter numerous stories of unexplained failures of ecu's after less than 50 hours ! When I first looked at the new engine they shipped me and realized it was electronic ( I had been shown a new install of a 4jh mechanical injection engine ) I tried to send it back but was given a run around .Dealing with yanmar is like dealing with a stone wall . Note that neither yanmar nor Mack boring have an email address . If anyone wants to buy the latest in smooth , clean , efficient diesel technology I've got a brand new engine for sale .

How much are you asking for it?

[CarlF]

If BoatyardBoy bought a 4JH4-TE, I think it is not common rail. The new common rail models are "JH CR" and the similar HP engine would be the 4JH80.

YANMAR | JH CR (45-110 mhp)

[Panope]

Originally Posted by CarlF

If BoatyardBoy bought a 4JH4-TE, I think it is not common rail. The new common rail models are "JH CR" and the similar HP engine would be the 4JH80.

YANMAR | JH CR (45-110 mhp)

It does appear that Yanmar America is still selling mechanically injected engines.

The data on the consumer web page is limited but here is what I found for their sailboat line of engines:

-The YM series (14 - 29 hp) is "Indirect injection". Tier 2 compliant.
-The JH series (39 - 110 hp) is "Direct injection". Tier 3 compliant.
-The JHCR series (45 - 110) is "Direct injection with common rail". Tier 3 compliant.

Steve

[Dustybilges]

Originally Posted by Zai

How much are you asking for it?

Update ... Thanks to person who suggested I talk with mastry about parts . They were quite helpful and when I told them my story they said they still had a few of the mechanically injected 4jh engines ( Whoever wrote that they're still making / selling them , I don't think so ; and mine had no cr designation . It is 4jh57 . ) and volunteered to talk to someone at Mack boring about it for me . I got a call from MB and they agreed to take it back and exchange it for a mechanical engine . BTW whoever told me it would be no problem to find email address for MB ; I looked again but couldn't find any way to email them . Maybe I just couldn't find it but I went to their website hit contact and all I got was their switchboard number which got me no further than a chance to leave a message . But thank you for leaving the head of the company's email address . The higher up you go the better your chance of being listened to . As for now the person I talked with at MB said they'd swap so I have sent it back and hope there won't be any problem . After reading all the posts here and elsewhere I don't understand how they can market marine diesels that can be so capriciously and thoroughly disabled . I gather that it is possible and some brands have owner replaceable plug and play ecu s . You'd think they would all make them that way . Apparently not and apparently not just yanmar . one guy I talked to at yanmar tried to reassure me by telling me the electronics on their 4jh had been in use in trucks for a couple of years and proven reliable . To his credit though he did seem to understand when i explained that for someone sailing to remote places they are a highly risky proposition . They are just starting to put these things in boats and who knows what the results will be in the next few years ? I wonder if the upper management and engineers have any idea the potential risk they are putting people in? I understand the appeal of the technology and performance benefits . But they are really only for people who operate near shore with factory trained technicians with sophisticated software at the ready . From what I can gather that remains to be seen . Boats just aren't like vehicles . As someone pointed out , you can't just pull over and call AAA. Why haven't one of you cognoscenti written something for the main stream boating / sailing mags about the potential hazards and true cost benefits of this technology that is about to take over the marketplace . ? It seems to me the next few years the manufacturers will be basically experimenting with these things and unless and until consumers let them know what is important and acceptable they will push the highest " performance " and technology and complication and price . BTW I wanted to put in a beta but my fore and aft space was limited . I had no idea I was getting a common rail engine - the engine I was shown , that I thought I was getting , was a mechanically injected " normal " engine .

[SailRedemption]

Originally Posted by CarlF

If BoatyardBoy bought a 4JH4-TE, I think it is not common rail. The new common rail models are "JH CR" and the similar HP engine would be the 4JH80.

YANMAR | JH CR (45-110 mhp)

Here is my engine for discussion purposes.

[Dustybilges]

Not electronic . The electronic jh had a cover over most of the stbd side of the engine with several large complex harnesses / connectors attached to the outside . The manual warned against disconnecting anything as the pins could be damaged by contact with skin/ fingers ( moisture , galvanic ? ) and there was a limit to how many times they could be disconnected/reconnected before they would fail . I think they placed the limit at ten times . Sounded awfully delicate for a marine engine

[rwidman]

Originally Posted by Dustybilges

............I don't understand how they can market marine diesels that can be so capriciously and thoroughly disabled . ..........

Any engine can be "capriciously and thoroughly disabled" by a number of malfunctions, not just new technology. If you are afraid of new advances, you'll do better to stick with old technology until you're no longer around. But let me ask, are you using chart plotters, GPS and electronic depth sounders or a sextant and a lead line? Do you have an electric anchor light or a kerosene lantern?

[Sailmonkey]

I'm all for new technology, but there comes a time when the cost/benefit becomes skewed. I've been around a fair number of breakdowns of cr engines from a wide array of manufacturers, the two common themes in their repair has been time and expense. The expense of repair is easier to wrap up with operating costs on much higher hp engines, but when we start talking about sub 100 hp auxiliaries the additional power and smoothness doesn't seem worth the expense to me.


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[model 10]

There are things that you will need to learn about, living with these things. Electrical plugs jammed full of dia-electric compound for one. Even the very best connectors can need it when it gets humid and salty

[glenn.225]

Originally Posted by rwidman

Any engine can be "capriciously and thoroughly disabled" by a number of malfunctions, not just new technology. If you are afraid of new advances, you'll do better to stick with old technology until you're no longer around. But let me ask, are you using chart plotters, GPS and electronic depth sounders or a sextant and a lead line? Do you have an electric anchor light or a kerosene lantern?

Yes but I think a lot of us carry a backup for most systems, (i.e. spare bulbs for anchor lights, secondary gps, paper charts, connectors for wiring, spare filters, some even starters, alts, pumps, etc) a spare ECU for any electronically controlled engine would be good to have. I like someone else mentioned carry a spare ECU and sensors for my jeep along with a 8000 Lbs winch, I go places where no one is going to come and get me.
I’m not afraid of any type of technology, but I was going to far flung places it had belter be repairable.

[Dustybilges]

The problem , it seems to me , is that all it takes is a momentary power interruption or some other relatively minor electrical glitch and you will not be able to use the engine . Some of these can only be replaced by using laptops and expensive software . As I said the parts guy at MB wouldn't even sell me a spare . He insisted it would have to be shipped back to them in order to carry out reprogramming . That's what I was told . What happens when you're hundreds of miles from the nearest dealer who then has to send it back there and then reinstall it using his laptop and software ? So much for freedom and independence

[rwidman]

People, you can't escape change. Remember when motor vehicles replaced the horse? Transistors replaced vacuum tubes? Integrated circuits replaced discreet transistors? Computers replaced adding machines?

You learn to live with and accept it or you hide in a corner until you die. You can whine all you want on web forums, it won't change anything. If you can find an old engine and rebuild it and that makes you feel more secure, stop complaining and do it.