Cruisers Forum
 


Join CruisersForum Today

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 22-03-2010, 07:06   #16
Registered User
 
markpj23's Avatar

Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Black Hills, SD
Boat: Now Boatless
Posts: 1,148
Images: 47
My initial thought to your question was that since most Leopards are built for charter service, resale value might be an issue if you own it for a short period of time.
__________________

__________________
Mark
markpj23 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22-03-2010, 09:16   #17
Registered User

Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 2,064
Images: 1
"You know the typical scenario just retired or semi retired, hope your other half will get in the swing of things."

Given the uncertainty of the above statement, my first reaction was -- don't even consider buying new. You'll take your biggest deprecation hit on a new boat, and if things don't work out....? In the end, total cost of ownership depends largely on resale value as a percent of operating plus up-front costs. You'll almost always do better on a used boat.

If you want a boat that's fairly new, yet has already endured some depreciation, you'd be better off in a 3-5 year-old boat being sold by someone else who's admiral didn't "get in the swing of things".

It would come better equipped than a new boat, and probably have any new boat defects worked out. After 7 or 8 years you will need new sails, running rigging, anchor lines, exterior canvas, and possibly some major engine maintenance. Factor that into your purchase price. After 10 years you will also need to look carefully at standing rigging and other systems / deck refit.
__________________

__________________
SailFastTri is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22-03-2010, 09:40   #18
Senior Cruiser
 
schoonerdog's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: May 2004
Location: annapolis
Boat: st francis 44 mk II catamaran
Posts: 1,174
Images: 4
true, I think moorings has their boats about 5 years before moving them to resale. I'd guestimate about 30k would be needed for a complete refit, new enclosure, sails, stackpack, rigging inspection, engine work, new upholstery, updated instruments, etc. But probably around 30% to 40% will be knocked off the new boat price (well over 100k). Figure if you buy the boat new, you'll be selling it for a 30% discount after 5 years, plus loosing another 10% on commission fees. You'll never be able to bargain heavily with an buyer because you're competing against moorings in the used market which has a lot of leverage on new boat prices and probably cover their own broker fees. Trust me, I've owned a couple catamarans over the years, buying and selling my own catamaran, save money where ever you can. New catamaran owners are often dillusional when it comes to resale value and get a very hard lesson after a few years. I remember our first boat that we bought in Ft Lauderdale was behind a boat called "little miss sis" when we bought our first cat 12 years ago. When we sold that boat 5 years later, little miss sis was still trying to be sold. The owner was a dentist who put a lot of money into the boat and was thinking he could sell it for what he put into it. After 5 years he ended up selling it for a little less than half of what he was asking for. And he had 5 years of marina fees, and 5 years of payments, and a 10% brokers fee. I'd be very surprised if he didn't end up loosing over 100k on a boat which cost only 200k new.
schoonerdog is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-04-2010, 11:24   #19
Registered User

Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 1
Leopard anchoring.

We recently chartered a Leopard 40 and thought the anchor setup very poor and potentially dangerous. With the anchor so far aft, when you lay back the boat wants to sit about 70 deg off the wind. This means the chain chafes under the bow. To keep the boat straight you have to juggle the engines as you pay out the chain. You then have to stick your hand into the anchor chute, or through the tramp to hook up the bridle. While your hand is vulnerable, your choice is to keep the boat straight with engines, or left it drift and inevitably swing to the side again.

You can't set the anchor until you are laid back fully on the bridle. If the anchor fails to set (as it did in Bahamas sea grass on a couple of occasions), you have to reverse the whole process risking your hands twice more. Same goes if the wind picks up and you want to lay more scope. Not much fun if it's at night.

For a 4 year old charter boat, the Leopard had held up well and overall it was a good charter boat. However, the anchor problems alone would stop me from buying anything with a similar setup.
__________________
Trolleys is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-04-2010, 12:32   #20
Registered User

Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Odiham, Hampshire, UK
Boat: Not sure - gathering info. on catamarans
Posts: 14
Anchor location

Dear Trolleys

Thank you for the anchoring explanation.

It was mentioned previously but no explanation as to the problem, or it didn't sink in if it was explained.

I can see now what you mean. The 38 has a similar set up with the exception the windlass and anchor are accessible from the same access hatch. However on this model i'm sure the bridle can be attached without reaching under the tramp.

It is obviously nice to have the anchor stored back out of the way but it will be a rear occasion that you are able to trail back in a straight line. Either a little wind or current will tend to push you off centre. As I will be single handed mostly this will be a real test.

Maybe a solution is to put a anchor bow roller under the front cross member that could be used when setting the anchor. It could have a quick release mechanism on the roller to allow the anchor to drop free when you wish to store it back in its locker. This may be messy and you would need a rode to support the anchor once it was released, also you would be hanging over the front crossmember, this rode would stay attached to the anchor when stored. The rode would be used again to lift the anchor back up into the roller.

What a fiddly job that would be, so I guess that we are really saying the anchor is best stored and deployed from the bow.

Thank you for the input.

Scot
__________________
Blades-Dreaming is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-04-2010, 14:42   #21
Registered User
 
Stein's Avatar

Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Oslo, Norway
Boat: Sail mostly multis. Formula 18 Hobie Wild Cat and TRT 1200. Much else too.
Posts: 44
I'd be VERY careful with a balsa polyester design. If they used vacuum injection, it will be fairly OK, but not ideal. If they used hand layup, it will be disastrous if used below the waterline, and a stress factor anywhere else.

The reason for this is simply that balsa is wood, damp wood will rot and polyester is not at all watertight. With vacuum injection, the wood will be sealed by resin, and all voids will fill pretty good, so water will not to any great extent spread out from punctures. If hand layup was used, water entering between the sandwich outer shells will spread easily along the non filled channels between balsa pieces and rot is unavoidable. A rotten sandwich core equals a ruined boat.

Balsa (only the end grain type, planks are horrible) is a very strong and technically nice core. In the deck areas it has the advantage of heat tolerance, while foams soften and may change shape if loaded while hotter than 80 degrees C, which is not all that unusual with say a teak covered deck in hot climates. As long as the above mentioned rot problems are taken care of, balsa is good for some uses.

Foams also insulate far better than balsa, so the heat will penetrate a balsa deck more. In cold climates, a foam core can be a good contribution to the winter insulation needed, also reducing condensation, while balsa is close to a single skin hull.

Of course epoxy can be applied in all the same ways as polyester, but if paying the rather substantial extra cost of epoxy, I'd also use some form of vacuum moulding and I'd heat cure it at least at 50 degrees C for at least 15 hours, depending on which epoxy was used. 120 degree C systems are even a lot better. It's properties will then be totally superior to any type of polyester, but good vinylesters are not far behind and they do simplify the processes some.

For this boat I'd check which materials and build method they use properly. I don't know the boat at all, but the possible balsa core sets off my alarm...
__________________
I'd rather set my goals high and reach them, than set them low and fail.
Stein is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-04-2010, 14:55   #22
Senior Cruiser
 
nautical62's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Live Iowa - Sail mostly Bahamas
Boat: Beneteau 32.5
Posts: 2,264
Images: 12
Sunsail will be adding the new Leopard 38 to their fleet. Chartering one might be a good investment in seeing if it's right for you. You can get a feel during a test sail, but there's nothing like spending week actually cruising a boat to see if it's what you want for cruising.

I know the new 38 is supposedly a big departure from the previous Leopard Cats, so some of the issues may not be the same.

I'd personally love to trade into a Leopard 38 on my next moorings/sunsail contract, but it looks like their price will be out of my price range.
__________________
nautical62 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-04-2010, 03:08   #23
Registered User
 
Adaero's Avatar

Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Devon UK,
Boat: Leopard 46 Cat "Tulliana"
Posts: 154
Images: 1
Quote:
Originally Posted by Trolleys View Post
We recently chartered a Leopard 40 and thought the anchor setup very poor and potentially dangerous. With the anchor so far aft, when you lay back the boat wants to sit about 70 deg off the wind. This means the chain chafes under the bow. To keep the boat straight you have to juggle the engines as you pay out the chain. You then have to stick your hand into the anchor chute, or through the tramp to hook up the bridle. While your hand is vulnerable, your choice is to keep the boat straight with engines, or left it drift and inevitably swing to the side again.

You can't set the anchor until you are laid back fully on the bridle. If the anchor fails to set (as it did in Bahamas sea grass on a couple of occasions), you have to reverse the whole process risking your hands twice more. Same goes if the wind picks up and you want to lay more scope. Not much fun if it's at night.

For a 4 year old charter boat, the Leopard had held up well and overall it was a good charter boat. However, the anchor problems alone would stop me from buying anything with a similar setup.
As a Leopard 46 owner I can say that there is a knack to laying an anchor that is aft of the forward beam but it is actually relatively simple. I have never had the chain touch a hull or had any problems as descibed above even when anchoring in over 30 knots also with currents running. The anchor set up on mine is the same as the 40 and you shouldn't have to put your arm down under the tramp or down the anchor hole to attach the bridal as the bridal clip should always be up beside the windlass? You can set the anchor without the bridal by dropping down the anchor locking plate to take the strain off the windlass before reversing. As far as using the engines when laying out the chain, I don't know a cat that you don't have to do this with as its good practice, yes, you do have to make sure you don't drift but its really not that difficult.
I think you had a typical charter boat that some numpty had messed about with the bridal arrangement prior to your charter.
__________________
Regards
Adaero
www.tulliana.adaero.co.uk
Adaero is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-04-2010, 07:17   #24
Registered User

Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 69
I'm gonna go out on a limb and suggest you have a boat custom built from the likes of Oram (38C, 44C) Spirited and many others. The boat can be built by a yard with no actual labor being done by yourself.
__________________
malovich is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-04-2010, 19:44   #25
Registered User
 
Cotemar's Avatar

Join Date: Dec 2007
Boat: FP, Helia 44 Evo
Posts: 5,717
Balsa core below the waterline, Bad news

Blades-Dreaming,

Leopard / Moorings Cats are Balsa core below the waterline.
Once water gets in the balsa it cost big money to fix and in most cases the glass guy just chisels out the black nasty wet balsa and fills the soft area's with glass. The next years does another spot or two. The next year does another spot or three. Eventually you will either be broke or have a solid fiberglass boat.

Its to bad because I did like the layout, but after fixing some balsa core on a boat I had a few years back I would never touch one. Now I can smell wet Balsa a few miles away. You just never forget that smell.

Mark
__________________
Cotemar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20-04-2010, 09:58   #26
Marine Service Provider

Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: South Florida and the Caribbean
Boat: A beautiful catamaran
Posts: 152
Have you considered..

Althought Leopards and Lagoons are both very good catamarans, if it is just one or two people living aboard have you considered a 34' Gemini 105MC? This is the reason why; In this market all vessels are fairly new, in good shape and fairly inexpensive. This means you can have a good chance of finding a like new catamaran at a great discount. The Gemini is a shallow draft boat (18 inches with the centerboards up) and a liftable sonic drive leg. I also lived aboard one for a few years and I can tell you from experience that it is nice to lift that sonic drive leg up and avoid the galvanic corrosion problems that other boats have when there is electrical leakage in crowded marinas in the caribbean. Anyone that knows what I am talking about, you can see a set of shafts and props eaten away by galvanic corrosion is as little as a month. The gear on the Gemini is easy to get to, and it is very roomy inside with lots of storage space. When you have a larger family, like three or more, and you live aboard then it is time to step up to a larger vessel, like a nice 38 foot Lagoon. But if I was a loner, I would definately go back to a Gemini Catamaran. It was a great sailing catamaran and served our family well for the time we owned it.

Oh one more thing.. ALWAYS chart your courses and mark your positions every hour or so when making a crossing. Never rely on your electronics alone. Think of them as aids to your navigational needs, but if your power goes, all you will have is your charts.
__________________

__________________
SuenosAzules is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
leopard

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Looking to Buy a Leopard 46 Coming Out of Charter Ajaxone Meets & Greets 1 10-04-2010 11:45
Buy Cheap and Refit Yourself or Buy Turn-Key? Tspringer Dollars & Cents 43 22-06-2009 05:30
Buy now and fix versus save and buy later shawnkillam Multihull Sailboats 21 08-11-2008 15:10
1975 Morgan -to buy or not to buy???? HELP Jennybug Monohull Sailboats 24 16-05-2008 17:01
Buy cheap & repair ... or buy expensive and go? j9gillik General Sailing Forum 22 23-10-2007 15:02



Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 11:39.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.