Upwind performance of condomarans

[44'cruisingcat]

Originally Posted by PaulinOz

Quote 44C "So, after all the lies, drivel and misinformation, it turns out the Seawind1250 has adequate load carrying capacity for it's intended purpose"

Quote 44C "The fixed tanks would include the holding tanks, 240 litres. But nobody would sail an ocean passage with full holding tanks. So that takes the available ocean going payload up to 1690kg, plus fuel and water.

Seems more than adequate IMO."

So if I am reading all this correctly, you are now suggesting that to have a "more than adequate" In your opinion, ocean going payload the owner first needs to empty his holding tanks.

"You CANNOT be serious!"

Really? Is that how you read that?

I was simply applying a commonsense approach. I didn't think anybody would seek to import the contents of their holding tanks into a foreign country, or carry them across an ocean.

Would you?

[Jim Cate]

Originally Posted by tuskie

Hey Jim. Are you still moderating? Looks like some moderation is needed when people are unjustly accused of lying, etc.

You have me confused with Ann, the more patient and considerate member of our crew.

Had I possessed the infinite power granted the mods, I'd have shut this thread down a while back. I must admit, though, to a certain fascination seeing the multihull gurus snarling at each other instead of unwitting monohullists!

Looking across the saloon table, I see her moderating away... just on another thread or issue at this moment.

Jim

PS I did find the more factual discussion of cruising cats windward performance quite interesting before the bun fight began.

[PaulinOz]

Quote SMJ "How much load carrying capacity do you need if you figure the liquids aren't included?"

Now that is a sensible question to ask, all be it very individual to the person answering the question.

The more important question, is what is included or not included in the load carrying capacity?

For example: Dinghy, outboard motor, dinghy fuel, generator, water maker, dive gear/compressor, canoe/paddle board, engine spares, tools, line and rigging spares, etc etc etc.

Where all these included or not included in the original vessels calculation.

If not part of the original calculations, all this weight needs to be subtracted from load capacity on the CE Plate.

To be able to decide how many people, personal gear and provisions can be loaded safely.

[PaulinOz]

Quote Jim "must admit, though, to a certain fascination seeing the multihull gurus snarling at each other instead of unwitting monohullists!"

Hold that thought Jim when next we are being accused of always attacking monohullists only.

[smj]

Originally Posted by PaulinOz

Quote SMJ "How much load carrying capacity do you need if you figure the liquids aren't included?"

Now that is a sensible question to ask, all be it very individual to the person answering the question.

The more important question, is what is included or not included in the load carrying capacity?

For example: Dinghy, outboard motor, dinghy fuel, generator, water maker, dive gear/compressor, canoe/paddle board, engine spares, tools, line and rigging spares, etc etc etc.

Where all these included or not included in the original vessels calculation.

If not part of the original calculations, all this weight needs to be subtracted from load capacity on the CE Plate.

To be able to decide how many people, personal gear and provisions can be loaded safely.

I think we figured the Seawind 1250 has a load carrying capacity of 1450kg which figures on top of tanks already full of fuel, water and holding. I’m sure that covers sails and motors but maybe not ground tackle etc. I don’t consider a generator and paddle board as being a necessity but that depends on the individual.
that’s over 3000 lbs which to me is huge, but then again we choose to own a dinghy/motor combination which only weighs 100lbs. As you said it would vary person to person, but to me very doable.

[44'cruisingcat]

Originally Posted by tuskie

Hey Jim. Are you still moderating? Looks like some moderation is needed when people are unjustly accused of lying, etc.

I believe the terms you used were "misinformation" and "alternate facts".

But yes, you unjustly accused me of lying. I simply repeated the load information from the owner's manual. Which you apparently couldn't find. Until you could.

So, full fuel, full water, (according to what the CE certification REALLY says) full holding tanks (for the strangely inclined) and 1 1/2 tonnes. Enough for a great many long distance cruising couples I would have thought.

And quite close to the 3300 kg stated in the manual. Funny that.

Now the Lightwave 45. 2.3 tonnes load capacity according to the website. A long range cruiser?

[44'cruisingcat]

Originally Posted by smj

I think we figured the Seawind 1250 has a load carrying capacity of 1450kg which figures on top of tanks already full of fuel, water and holding. I’m sure that covers sails and motors but maybe not ground tackle etc. I don’t consider a generator and paddle board as being a necessity but that depends on the individual.
that’s over 3000 lbs which to me is huge, but then again we choose to own a dinghy/motor combination which only weighs 100lbs. As you said it would vary person to person, but to me very doable.

I'd say it would cover all the equipment supplied standard with the boat, which includes a 45 lb anchor and 55 m of chain, stuff like fire extinguishers life jackets etc, but not optional extras like gensets or watermaker.

The manual shows the included inventory.

[PaulinOz]

Quote smj "but maybe not ground tackle"

Did not even think about ground Tackle. Mine weighs 470kg.

That's my whole point, you would think it should be easy to get a figure for the total max weight for any given vessel to be operated safely within it's designed conditions.

Sadly, it is elusive to say the least.

[rom]

Originally Posted by PaulinOz

For example: Dinghy, outboard motor, dinghy fuel, generator, water maker, dive gear/compressor, canoe/paddle board, engine spares, tools, line and rigging spares, etc etc etc.

I posted the detail from my L440 user manual but it is in French: None of the above you mention are included the CE light displacement, not even the davits (45kg), antifouling, electronics, etc ... My understanding is that the boat is ready to sail but with minimal equipment.

Per Lagoon L440 manual the sum of all options, 12 people (and personal belongings), all tanks full, weights about 4800 kg. Leaves a 1100 kg margin for food, drinks, and some toys (max payload 5900 kg).

I have met people sailing oceans on condos like mine, some on fast cruisers with less than 3000 kg payload, all of them were pretty happy !

I guess I never reached 75% of my allowed payload. Now, who's the fastest, a condo at 50% payload (3000kg) or a fast cruiser at 100% payload (3000kg) ? Fight !

[Barra]

YAWN

you lagoon boys really need to just chill the he'll out and stop being so damn defensive of every imagined slight. It's all in your heads

44c I really don't know why you bother mate.

[44'cruisingcat]

Originally Posted by Barra

YAWN

you lagoon boys really need to just chill the he'll out and stop being so damn defensive of every imagined slight. It's all in your heads

44c I really don't know why you bother mate.

I get a lot of laughs from it.

And you know, I learn something new everyday. For instance I wouldn't have thought for one second that someone would want to carry a tank full of sewage across an ocean. Takes all kinds.

[44'cruisingcat]

Originally Posted by rom

I posted the detail from my L440 user manual but it is in French: None of the above you mention are included the CE light displacement, not even the davits (45kg), antifouling, electronics, etc ... My understanding is that the boat is ready to sail but with minimal equipment.

That's interesting. Not even davits or antifoul?

Do the davits or antifoul come standard or are they extras when you purchase?

[smj]

Originally Posted by rom

I posted the detail from my L440 user manual but it is in French: None of the above you mention are included the CE light displacement, not even the davits (45kg), antifouling, electronics, etc ... My understanding is that the boat is ready to sail but with minimal equipment.

Per Lagoon L440 manual the sum of all options, 12 people (and personal belongings), all tanks full, weights about 4800 kg. Leaves a 1100 kg margin for food, drinks, and some toys (max payload 5900 kg).

I have met people sailing oceans on condos like mine, some on fast cruisers with less than 3000 kg payload, all of them were pretty happy !

I guess I never reached 75% of my allowed payload. Now, who's the fastest, a condo at 50% payload (3000kg) or a fast cruiser at 100% payload (3000kg) ? Fight !

Well the type of buyer buying the condo would probably take their cat over their payload and the type of buyer purchasing a performance Catamaran would probably keep his boat under the payload. But given your specifics I would say the condo wouldn’t gain much from being under payload and the fast cruiser wouldn’t lose much until over their payload?

[rom]

Originally Posted by 44'cruisingcat

That's interesting. Not even davits or antifoul?

Do the davits or antifoul come standard or are they extras when you purchase?

Nope, it's in the 20kEUR "comfort pack", which I suppose 99.9% of Lagoon buyers would purchase.

So yes, for lagoon where everything comes as an option, CE light displacement could be seen as the boat without any options.

That fight was not in vain, we all get a better understanding of CE payload & displacement now.

[StuM]

Originally Posted by arsenelupiga

18 people and only 1 toilet on ocean passage

80g per, includng "baggage" for an extended ocean package? What about stores?