Trimaran - Especially Searunner - Owners

[Cavalier MK2]

[QUOTE=... He also kept me from making many many HUGE mistakes!

(This would be a full time job.)


SO... WHAT AM I DOING HERE?


(Making another mistake.)


....I only expect to be spoken to with respect, and not be "argued with", about petty details, or the veracity of my posts. I frequently "disagree" with someone who has a valid point of view [/QUOTE]

()

You should probably get a professional to preview your posts and take a cool off break before posting them. Glad this tirade wasn't directed at me but some people could be sensitive to this sort of thing. A post like this makes you appear far from professional or a good teacher.

[Boatguy30]

I'm pretty sure he meant us. Or at least you for sure.

[Mark Johnson]

PROP SIZE, PROPER YANMAR ENGINE OPERATING RPM, SOLAR PANELS, and CV JOINT ADVANTAGES:

"CRUISING" RPM:
I have seen several posts where guys made references to their fairly low normal operating RPMs. It should be at least around 2,900 RPM, but we tend to run them too slowly! It seems intuitive that we are "being easier on them", but it is NOT TRUE. It was true of an old slow running Perkins diesel, but not of modern, light weight, high speed diesels. They are entirely different animals.

I too was not a believer, until I had a dozen conversations with Yanmar America, The guys at Mack Boring, Mastery Marine, Bell Marine, and numerous certified Yanmar Mechanics. One was straight back from his latest training seminar.

It seems that the constant running or "CRUISING" max RPM of 3,400, is confirmed at the factory, by doing the following:

They have an engine mounted on its portable beds in the shop with hoses hooked up to change fluids on schedule. Then they run the little engine NON STOP at 3,400 RPM, 24/7, for an entire year! This is followed by total disassembly, to inspect for wear.
They don't just come up with these numbers arbitrarily, they make test like described, AND also look at a lot of engines that were run too slowly..

Yanmars and similar small diesels don't usually "wear out", they "carbon out". This is usually from either running your boat "over propped" (meaning where it can not reach the 3,600 RPM maximum), OR from running it at too low an RPM.

It is hard to get one's prop exactly correct, but it is better to er on the side of "under propping". You don't ever want to lug the engine and make it smoke...

Also: Even though you CAN run it all day at 3,400 RPM, most cruisers do not, for fuel efficiency reasons. As Roy pointed out, once you approach hull speed, it takes a disproportionately large amount of fuel to go faster.

Our All day "sweet spot" is 2,850-2,900 RPM, and as low as 2,700 will not harm the engine at all. Below that, however, and you invite having it carbon up. IF you NEED to go as low as 2,500 all day long, it is best to rev it up to over 3,000 for 5 minutes out of every hour. This blows the carbon out a bit.

Running it at lower RPM than this 2,500 (all day), is not advisable. It's OK once in a while, but if it is a regular thing, you are shortening the engine's life.

THE BIG PICTURE:
This is one of many reasons that solar panels can actually pay for themselves over 20 years. They prevent you from charging up with your engine's alternator at anchor, (which = running the engine very slowly), every day of your liveaboard/cruising life. Over many years, this daily practice is murder on these engines!

WHAT IS THE FIRST THING TO TO GO?
Over decades... Other than belts & impellers, the exhaust elbow is usually the first thing to go, although it may just be full of carbon. (It needs inspection every 5 years). The next things to go are usually the the raw water or external fuel pump.

THE CV ADVANTAGE:
Btw... That CV joint in previous photos, was quite expensive, but it makes perfect alignment or future tweeks, not important. (7 degrees out will suffice). It also allows the shaft to ONLY rotate, without shaking with the engine like it otherwise would. This "rotates only" means that the PSS shaft seal works FAR better, leaks less, and lasts longer.

ALSO: The thrust bearing feature of the CV joint means that neither the forward nor reverse thrust is born by the engine's rubber feet at all, as they otherwise would. The thrust goes solely on the engine bed's aft bulkhead. It extends the life of engine feet to decades, and if you snag a crab pot someday, this feature can even save your transmission!

SO... When pricing a sufficient number of solar panels, or a CV joint, you need to subtract the cost of extra alternators, engine feet, PSS shaft seals, possibly a transmission, and laydays spent futzing with your engine to shaft's alignment!

If you keep it pristine clean, well maintained, well proped, and run it at a properly high RPM, then you can skip that $5,000 ten year engine rebuild too.

Mark

[Randy]

Mark,
I have followed this thread for a number of years having been a searunner owner for 15 yrs and hope to own either another one or a constant camber model. I love the boats. You've got a lot of excellent knowledge and have shared that very well on this site as well as elsewhere I'm sure. I truly appreciate that.what I don't see is that you don't appreciate the idea that many if not most of the rest of the thread participants have decades of experience in this field as well even though they may not present their insights/experience as illustratively as you or well as you have. I have read posts that in my view haven't been valid or sometimes off-the-wall from some including you but as far as I'm concerned; that's OK.
If I have some advice it might be to accept that there are MANY authoritative people providing input to this thread.

Best Regards

[Mark Johnson]

Originally Posted by Randy

Mark,
I have followed this thread for a number of years having been a searunner owner for 15 yrs and hope to own either another one or a constant camber model. I love the boats. You've got a lot of excellent knowledge and have shared that very well on this site as well as elsewhere I'm sure. I truly appreciate that.what I don't see is that you don't appreciate the idea that many if not most of the rest of the thread participants have decades of experience in this field as well even though they may not present their insights/experience as illustratively as you or well as you have. I have read posts that in my view haven't been valid or sometimes off-the-wall from some including you but as far as I'm concerned; that's OK.
If I have some advice it might be to accept that there are MANY authoritative people providing input to this thread.

Best Regards

Hi Randy,
Hmmm... Not sure why you felt that way? I am well aware that there are a number of VERY knowledgeable trimaran and boatbuilder folks on this thread. Unfortunately, so few speak up that we may not all be aware of the number of them or their experience level. Come on you guys, if you have something to add, tell all, we'd love to see your posts too... I certainly don't want to hog the floor ya know...

The ONLY two contributors that I was referring to as Trolls, and many others have too (privately or otherwise), are Cavalier and BoatGuy. I started out ages ago conversing with them rationally, respectfully, and with an open mind, but they have in fact made the numerous inaccurate, ridiculous, and insulting comments that I listed. If you go back far enough, you will see them all, and then some. It may not be fair to lump them together, but that was their choice, not mine. ("It's you n me buddy" and all that). They reinforce each other's attacking behavior.

"I" have never made such ridiculous comments on CF, and NONE of my posts are "Off the wall" as you said... I might have made a very slight error in the quantity of A or B, now and again, but by & large, all of my posts are accurate and hopefully useful. If not, I sure have been wasting my time! My apologies if they are sometimes too long winded. My friend Roy has made that point. I admit to that, but short posts often means making an oversimplification out of a complex issue. I do tend to look at the big picture... It's just not that simple!

I don't know you Randy, but regardless, I would ALWAYS give you the benefit of the doubt, listen to what has been your experience, and try to either teach or learn from "our" shared experience, (perhaps both). This is as I would do for most folks on CF. If I disagree with your posts, when you are giving me your factual speed, or AH draw, etc. I would keep it to myself for sure. On the other hand... I have no reason to question your honesty or intelligence, so I would probably REALLY take your word for it, even if it was with difficulty. One thing I would never do online, however, is question your honesty or the actual veracity of your posts. These two guys have done exactly that to me, Roy, Ross, Jim Brown, John Marples, and others. It is rude and the very kind of insulting behavior that so many feel they have licences for, since the advent of the Internet.

If you read back on their posts, you will see (besides their rude dis-belief, and needless arguing), statements by them that are SO off the wall as to be utterly ridiculous, with rampant inaccuracies, and the sort of social media "smirkyness" that one expects from teenage school girls.

In giving my advice... It is NEVER "My way or the high way".
I give my clients advice on boat buying, equipping, building, repair, and all manner of related things. I first ask them questions, like: Their age, physical condition, cruising experience, boatwork skill level, budget, time frame, climate, cruising plans, etc.

I tailor my suggestions to their particular needs. In some cases it is totally appropriate to really knock out a project with quick n dirty work, and the easiest/cheapest possible materials. Just because that goes against my grain "personally", doesn't mean that I wouldn't suggest ways that would help them achieve just that! It is all about the individual's situation. They will have an inferior boat, made of short lived materials, and it may STILL be just right for them, nonetheless.

On CF I have tended to talk mostly about (and show hundreds of photos of) very long lived, strong, "better" ways of building, equipping, etc., because more that anything, that is what I know best. Primarily, the quick n dirty methods of building, with common materials like latex house paint, is self explanatory. We have all used that stuff!

On CF, I never said that the "other" laid back way, or the "old ways" with old materials, were not appropriate to that person's needs, ONLY that they are not as long lived, strong, solvent & UV resistant, low maintenance, etc.
Only an irrational person, would argue that they are.

I saw Jim & John a couple of months ago at the Wooden Boat School, and they were laughing about just HOW quick n dirty the previous SC 21 project done there had been. It was something like a couple of weeks to first splash! It was still a WEST system boat, but really thrown together and FUN to build! The "point" for this project, was just how fast this design "could" be built, if one wanted to, and they proved it! There is indeed, a time and place for everything... My temporary structures built over the last two boat projects, just took about a week to build each, with heat, lights, and all. Each one cost less than $1,000, and one of them still stands, after 32 years!

By all means Randy, make more posts about your boat and your tips and such. You won't get any argument from me. There are lot's of ways of doing things, and my "big picture, long lived, ultra low maintenance" orientation, is indeed very time and money consuming "up front". The overall investment reverses, however, after decades. Then, my way is cheaper and less work too.
WITHOUT A DOUBT... my approach is NOT for everyone. It takes intent focus, tenacity, and a lot of boatbuilding skill. I have just told folks how to do it, IF it is for them. Kinda of a personal choice...

Anyone wanting quick access to a huge mess of my photos, btw...
Google "images": (Mark Johnson's Searunner)

As for BoatGuy and Cavalier, I certainly don't want to ruffle their feathers, (tried hard not to), but this has gone on for long enough. They are neither teaching nor learning, as I said. Their insulting comments have been totally out of line, and I do hope they just go away, as I am sure they have little to teach us. In case they don't care to, I have just "blocked them". I strongly suggest that they do the same with my posts, so that we don't get irritated by the other's comments.

(To do it: you click on the person's Avatar name, to get the option at the bottom of "blocking"...) I have done my best in the past to just not read them, but sometimes I'd slip. Problem solved now!

As I said, PEACE! And best regards to all,
Mark


"Be kind, for everyone is fighting a terrible battle"

[Randy]

No Mark, none of you comments have been "off the wall". And of course it's my judgement that some others have been at times; not just this thread but others. And what the hell, it becomes entertainment at that point.

[Boatguy30]

Wow, you having a bad week.

FYI, John Marples is fond of you as well. He refers to you as "that crazy guy Mark Johnson" when I talk to him.

And 100,000 hours??? 50 years full time? Half way to breaking Noah's record!!!

[Cavalier MK2]

Originally Posted by Boatguy30

I'm pretty sure he meant us. Or at least you for sure.

Wow, I've never been a troll before....and just in time for Halloween! Think of the money I'll save on a costume! And think Jeff, you have a bridge (deck) to lurk under, what could be funner. I'm still laughing at the mental labyrinth of the Johnstoned chronicles that created things like Cross hulls the same as searunners etc.....he should ask Chris White about the keel thing.....At least he didn't say I was cavalier.....

I'll try to keep on track and be more gentle about pointing out the dangers of overloading your boat by several thousand pounds, not being xenophobic about other designs or judgemental about how many hulls people are sailing.

Cheers (not Jeers) Cav

[rossad]

OK as clever as we might think we are we are just communicating in our own way for our own self image to be massaged. But life doesnt work like that..........

Here is a very simple but effective verse to say to yourself every day.

I got it from an 80 year old seaman

"Think nice thoughts and do good deeds"

Cause if you do that .... you have calmer sleeps and better days.

Its called improving and making your life better.

[Jimske]

Originally Posted by Cavalier MK2

I've been taking a page from the old kerosene lantern approach and using LED cabin lights and things that have their own rechargeable batteries. Then I can use a battery charger near the 12 volt set up for the "refueling station". Like wise I prefer the hand held electronics approach, GPS, laptop, radio etc....the batteries can go to the refueling station which has an inverter and the stuff can be carried off the boat when not used and used hiking, in the car etc.....not for everyone but a good way to go light, 40 years of wire and add ons weighed quite a bit......

I'm with you regarding power requirements. I did convert to all LED and need them when I need BIG light. But my 31 has 6 stations for kerosene lanterns (one is used for the stern light at night) and a 7th for an anchor light. The lanterns also come in handy for taking the chill off the cabin. Surprisingly efficient. I have a 5 gal kerosene tank for easy refill. Rechargeable batteries? Solar power? Priceless!

Humans lived for centuries without being able to "flip a switch" for all their needs and lived remarkably comfortable. Slow and time consuming but once you get used to it it can work out.

J

[Cavalier MK2]

The batteries for the LEDs last a long time before needing a charge too, weeks....We often light a lantern but the LED approach means less extra fuel. Nice to hear you are keeping things simple!

[Roy M]

I still have a complete set of kerosene running lights (port, starboard, stern and anchor) in one of my storage boxes, just for the possibility that all the electrons decide to turn into smoke. I also have a variety of kerosene cabin lamps, including an old Aladdin which is as bright as a 100 watt bulb (and heats the sterncastle in no time). But, for the tropics and most other times, electrons rule my darkness.

The most valuable lesson I learned was how to trim the wicks by matching the curve of the slot where they exit. They seem to require a fair degree of maintenance, what with filling, trimming and cleaning the chimneys. I'm too lazy for all that, and my ageing eyes like bright light to work in. Still, I've got them if I ever need them.

[rossad]

Thats Smart Roy

[Roy M]

Thanks, Ross! I forgot to mention that I burn lamp oil instead of kerosene, to keep the smell down. I have running light boards to support the lamps, but they, too, are in storage because I don't need them, and they just get grungey sitting out the weather.

[Cavalier MK2]

The other good thing about the LEDs is the reduced fire risk. I never like the lanterns underway. Now if I could manifest a fuel cell......