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Old 14-04-2013, 10:29   #1996
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Re: Trimaran - Especially Searunner - Owners

Just to chip in a bit as a fully qualified rigger; I plan to use a bit of the stuff on my cat. Mainly just the attachment of the forestay bridle to the bows.
I personally still think it is not quite right for cruising in tropical service and it is awfully expensive to fully convert from wire to dynex. In my case, a new build, but I have a lot of wire components and most the wire and feel the UV/ abrasion/ and collision impacts are not adequate when compared to wire.
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Old 14-04-2013, 10:32   #1997
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Re: Trimaran - Especially Searunner - Owners

Jmolan, I'm afraid I'm missing something here. I didn't catch Mark claiming to be an expert. I found his question to be worthy and valid. He appears to be asking valid questions, based on his own experience, albeit limited to the running backs. In that we don't have a large sample base to compare to, of cruising multihulls with greater needs than monos of low creep and high loading, Mark's queries to Brion Toss seemed reasonable and genuine. I,too, am considering upgrading to synthetics. But having a 40 footer, I am even more curious, hence my support of folks asking good questions based on personal experience. Both of you have participated well in this forum. Let's not initiate cat fights, horse races or waste time. Let's focus on asking good questions (even if they irritate some of us) and participate in a healthy discussion that can lead to real decisions among those of us who are serious about this subject.
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Old 14-04-2013, 11:18   #1998
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If i can add my 2 cents from what i have been reading and hearing that the uneven expansion and contraction of the mast. it sounds like in the tropics it wouldn't be a problem. But then the question is does dux dry root.

Example being on my 31 I wanted to replace my halyards with synthetic. Got the jib halyard almost to me when the rope broke. They had crimped the wire and tired the rope top it, the rope was dry rotted. No big deal went to tune top of the mast. But the crimp got stuck can't reach it so now i have to bring the mast down.

Anyone unstepped theres with the boom? i guess i will have to pay top unstep it at a yard.

Sure wish the halyard had been a true wire to rope splice, as it would have passed right threw.
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Old 14-04-2013, 16:59   #1999
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Re: Trimaran - Especially Searunner - Owners

Roy, you are right as always. I will bow out. My boat is sold, I think it went to good hands. I am happy about it all..... I rarely check this forum anymore, moved on. I wish everyone well.
If I came on rude or too strong I apologize. What I was reading pissed me off. Someone was making claims, and opinions into fact... based on their conclusions, and never really having used any it...just their own ideas. It is not an uncommon thing on the web. I would hope anyone would use what they think is best, but when they claim their opinions as fact, I will call them on it. That's all.
Take care all, enjoy your boats. Thats why the are called pleasure boats.
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Old 14-04-2013, 17:24   #2000
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Re: Trimaran - Especially Searunner - Owners

I just had the opportunity to meet Eric and Jane of SEA DRAGON, a forty foot Searunner based in Lopez Island (or Bainbridge, I forget). Really nice familly, and these guys have been out there actually doing it on their boat for many years, all over the Pacific! They came to San Diego to visit family and we got a chance to visit today and I showed them the chaos that is WILDERNESS. They weren't terribly offput, though. It's a lot of fun sharing our experiences and boat ideas. There is so much to learn and tinker with. Eric and Jane have had a LOT of experience repairing their boat and changing stuff. They once went on the rocks and pretty much lost everything below the waterline, when visiting New Zealand. Being tough, determined and energetic, they repaired the damage in 10 months and one day, then sailed the boat home to Washington. Wow! And now, their boys are taking up the reins as they learn more of sailing, surfing, fishing and living aboard. This is what it's all about.
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Old 14-04-2013, 17:42   #2001
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Re: Trimaran - Especially Searunner - Owners

Back to the shower question. On the Nicol the original builder put in a step down pilot house/hard dodger over part of the cockpit area and blended it in with the cabin sides. The floor is above the water line and it makes a great shower with the shower bag hung from the boom. The top is removable to open up more cockpit area and it is seperated from the main cabin with hatch and doors. A Searunner might take some head scratching to work it out but it is a nice feature. To avoid the mast a step down house aft would shelter the galley entrance and give a forward "Chris White " smaller cockpit. The center board case might divide the floor on some models but with Jim's 31 dodger you have to use the aft cabin steps to stand up anyway....
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Old 15-04-2013, 01:46   #2002
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Re: Trimaran - Especially Searunner - Owners

Roy you are absolutely correct with what you say. Thanks for your realistic honest views.
Mark you have put more into this thread than anyone else giving advice that others can read and decide if it is worth there $ or efforts to do similar.
You guys have been around a while now and others will always try and show another view point and good on them.... but the reality is nobody can beat experience and thats what they are getting when reading this.
We are all very passionate with our boats having three hulls... and all try to do the same and that is improve them. The end of the day they are pleasure boats but they can be even more than that for us trimaraner's and that is called a home of seaworthiness.
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Old 15-04-2013, 07:07   #2003
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Re: Shower Ideas

Quote:
Originally Posted by Boatguy30 View Post
Just wanted to bring up the topic of showers and the best way to achieve an easy to use maintenance free ish shower in a ply and stringers boat.

On the SR 37 now in Rhode Island the original builder perhaps fitted a well glassed skin over the stringers to make the shower better draining. I somewhat like this idea, but what could get underneath scares me.
Ideas appreciated.

Jeff
I can tell you what is underneath. I found it from the outside working my way in by removing rotten hull. Underneath this pretty shower panel is Styrofoam panels. I'm concerned about condensation and consider tearing everything out, but that is next year's project. Also, the space under the sump does not seem to be vented. I have hull rot in that area also. Boats need to breath. Don't enclose spaces!
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Old 15-04-2013, 09:07   #2004
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Re: Trimaran - Especially Searunner - Owners

Amen, blewitt_john! I built mine so almost EVERYTHING comes out with a screwdriver: holding tank, fuel tank, water tanks, cabinets, floorboards, overheads. The engine requires some wrenches and a chain hoist. The mast requires a skyhook. Everything that can dry rot is sealed with West System (except the charts and paperback books), and there is drainage and ventilation space for everything. OOps! One exception. I foamed in the floor under the engine to make cleaning easier, but I incorporated a drain to connect the forward and aft cabin bilges in that one space.
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Old 15-04-2013, 09:22   #2005
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Re: Trimaran - Especially Searunner - Owners

The Nicol wheel house floor being above the waterline drains overboard and of course has vented space for storage underneath. These are pretty easy to work into a Cross or Horstman but the Searunner's very defined areas make it more of a challenge.
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Old 15-04-2013, 09:38   #2006
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Re: Trimaran - Especially Searunner - Owners

Cavalier MK2, I don't understand what you mean by "very defined areas" being more of a challenge. If you cut ventilation holes in the frames below the floorboards, and ensure there are plenty of limber holes for drainage, if you fill the lowest portions of the stringers with epoxy and filler, EVERYTHING liquid falls into the bilge and flows down to the bilge pump(s- I have big ones fore and aft), and air flow dries up all of it. What makes it a challenge? Of course, being able to remove the floorboards COMPLETELY, makes inspection and dust collection pretty easy, and the spaces beneath the fuel tank, house battery box, reefer and water tanks can be washed clean with an occasional burst from the water hose, then allowed to air dry. The spiders don't appreciate it, though.
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Old 15-04-2013, 10:22   #2007
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Re: Trimaran - Especially Searunner - Owners

Sorry Roy, I was talking about the challenge of putting in a step down pilot house dodger with a self draining floor. I hate putting fresh or salt water into the bilge. The pilot house works as a cockpit extension with the top off because it drains overboard and of course makes a great shower out of the living areas for the same reason. I like to look at these designs as design exercises to see how the could be fitted out to suit my likes.
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Old 15-04-2013, 11:55   #2008
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Re: Trimaran - Especially Searunner - Owners

SYNTHETIC RIGGING: Part Dux...

My previous comments were clearly qualified... I will cut and paste them here:
"Many rigs, (like front stayed triangular rigged rotating masts and such), have slack leewards, OR such a stout extrusion, (often with SS wire diamonds), that these changes in tune could be tolerated. I know that a lot of boats do fine with synthetics, and for some, there is a lot to be said for the stuff. I just want to point out that IF you plan World cruising, with a broad temperature range, (or locally for that matter), AND you have a tall tune sensitive rig, like we do, then wire is still the better choice IMO... from hot season to cold season." END QUOTE.

This is not just guessing, it is based on my experience, (and that of other rigger pros)... experimentation, and a profound understanding and application of the scientific process.

I never said that there were not appropriate applications for the stuff, or that it was not used successfully by a lot of boats, only that: for Searunners, (or boats with a similar rig) that want to keep the mast straight with longevity, chafe resistance, and broad range of temperature compatibility (with an aluminum extrusion), synthetics do not seem like a good match. It is a nobrainer!

If one had a short stout extrusion, and only sailed locally in a stable moderate climate, then these coefficient of expansion caveats become less of an issue. For OUR Searunner, with it's extra tall rig, the way we sail... I know that synthetics would be a disaster. This is a fact!

IF YOU HAVE TURNBUCKLES RATHER THAN LASHINGS, with synthetics:
You can indeed avoid your upper shrouds hanging slack on a cold day, (like my runners do), by putting on say... 1,500#s of preload @ 85 degrees F. The thing is, on a 100 degree day, that may well increase to 2,500#s of preload, (EACH), just from the expansion of the mast, more than the synthetic shrouds did. This is way too much static load, as the compression load on the mast is the SUM of all of the rig's preload. This can actually bend or crush the boat!

So, (hypothetically), if you start out with just 900#s of preload (on an 85 degree day), to minimize the previously mentioned static stress, the 1,500#s (each shroud) you might end up with, on a 100 degree day, are more tolerable. Thing is... that same starting point of 900#s preload, on an 85 degree day, might only be 3 or 400#s preload on a 45 degree day.
There is no way that such a shroud could keep MY mast in column, under full sail, in over 30 knots of wind. Being longer, the uppers would loose proportionately more of their preload than the intermediates, and the % of preload lost on the upper and lower shrouds & stays would vary in proportion to their length. It would likely do this in the opposite direction than I would want it to, in order to keep the mast in column.

Like I said several times, for tall/skinny tune sensitive rigs, (like ours), that sail in extremely varied seasons, and must get at least 15 years from their rig, wire is a much better match. No one really knows the lifespan of synthetics yet, but 5 years or so, is all that they can confidently offer, at this point. Bear in mind... My newish DUX runners have chafe already.

UPSIZING:
My decision to go up from 1/4" to 9/32" Dyform (type) 316 wire on the uppers only, was after 17 years of observation, thought, research, and professional paid consultation with other more experienced riggers. Conclusion:
Imo... This way I can achieve less stretch on these upper 4 wires, with minimal extra windage and weight. The current wires are already at maximum preload, so I can't get less stretch, (in an expansion/contraction compatible way), without this proposed upsize modification. It is not more strength that is the issue, it is less stretch. I should be able to achieve this with "compact strand" wire, while substantially lowering the wires' preload from what it is now. This will result in less load on the hull altogether.

Weight:
My previous point about the synthetic "weight advantage", was that with a TOTAL rig weight of around 400 to 500#s, (counting steps, radar, lights, sails UP, running & standing rigging, everything), using synthetics to knock say... 50#s off of the rig, IS an improvement in the boats "motion" in a seaway, but will not improve ghosting ability on a flat sea. Only more sail, OR a far lighter boat will accomplish that. I think that this was more what Jack was observing... The rig's total weight "higher up" has the most effect on motion (and to a lesser degree speed), and weight down low has very little. Switching to synthetics is a reduction of the TOTAL rig's weight of < 10%, but not >50%, as is implied when comparing the weight of the standing rigging alone. Rig weight matters, A LOT... but imo, keeping the mast in column, (no matter the temperature), trumps the 10% lighter rig, hands down.

BRION'S POINTS:
I have seen Brion Toss's "act" at an SSCA meeting, spoken to him personally, and conversed on line. I have also read his books and articles. He is a very entertaining guy, but very opinionated, and has a strong bias toward synthetics, probably for business reasons. He is very well known, but the last rigger I would go to for advise...

JACKS POINTS:
Since I have such respect for Jack Molan, and appreciated his sending me a slew of trimaran trailer photos in the past, I made it a point NOT to mention my "undeniable observations" about DUX, until AFTER I understood that his boat had been sold. (I didn't want to create a problem with the sale). Only then did I share with the Searunner community about the caveats of synthetics on these tune sensitive rigs.
It was later that I learned that Jack's first sale actually fell through. I wrote to apologize for any difficulties I may have inadvertently created...

In personal emails, I went out of my way to try to help him sell his boat, while also being honest about the pros & cons that one would be getting into. I explained this to Jack in the kindest terms in PMs, but he never responded. Like I said to you personally, Jack... Sorry if I stepped on your toes, it was not intended.

Having said that:
I would point out, that he apparently never cruised this boat through a broad temperature range (>80 degrees of range), and never lived on it and cruised year in year out. I haven't heard of him pushing it through 40+ knot winds on dozens of occasions, or regularly reaching double digit speeds, and any comparison to his use of DUX for pulling nets on a commercial vessel, are totally meaningless... different application altogether! In short... He really doesn't know what his synthetic rig would be like, to live with and cruise with, as a full time endeavor, over decades. So why all the passion???

It may no longer be true, I don't know... But I was told that Jack is financially invested in the DUX rigging business, which makes his position as such a passionate advocate, make more sense. Salesmanship!

I, on the other hand, am NOT invested in selling wire, and as a 40 year professional, (including lots of rigging), do less rigging work all the time. I'm getting too old. So, I have just been trying to give back in the way that I can. I never state opinion as fact, unless they are one and the same.

LIKE I SAID:
I love my DUX rigging on running backs, as our "quick adjust" turnbuckles, and usually slack status, makes the material's expansion caveats null & void.
IF I had opted for using turnbuckles... it might have also worked well on my old SC 28, with it's STOUT extrusion, and double triangulated spreaderless rig.
I just think that for our Searunners, if they are used as true multi climate "cruisers", the pros for using synthetics are vastly exceeded by the cons. If it had a carbon mast, however, that may not be the case...

Mark
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Old 15-04-2013, 12:27   #2009
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Re: Trimaran - Especially Searunner - Owners

Here is a view of our "hard top" while sailing.

The other attachment is from a Cross 10.5 searunner alternative. Despite the hard chine it is one of Norm's last designs from a proposed simple/ economical build series. Looking at the accommodation from the side shows space above the engine aft to drop the floor for a lower profile dodger with standing headroom in front of the aft cabin entrance. I like the thought behind this boat. The galley and Nav are forward of the cockpit allowing the hatch to be left open for cooking ventilation without letting in the spray. This also keeps the charts/nav gear dry while leaving the entrance open for those quick looks. The stern cabin is more seldom accessed making for quiet sleeping, having the head aft means the stern doesn't stay loaded up with loungers causing drag.

It is a neat boat in a Harry Pidgeon "Islander" sort of way, simple to build or repair and cruise without undo worry about the knocks of sailing life. Jeff Turner of Cross Multihulls sent a study packet by email and the plans are very affordable. And it has a cutter rig.....The layout is somewhat like a trimaran version of the Heavenly Twins catamaran.
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Old 15-04-2013, 19:08   #2010
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Re: Trimaran - Especially Searunner - Owners

Hey John,

l'll check your site for that styrofoam pic! I drove down to Miami to look at that boat, spent about an hour on her and drove home to St Augustine. glad you were able to make it safely to RI. the problem with letting things breath is that first coat of epoxy kills that and then you need to make sure NO water gets in as it will never get out.

I suppose I will do the large fillets as suggested and make a vertical side on the inboard hull side with someway to inspect and dry the area behind it.

cheers,
Jeff
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