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Old 04-07-2008, 21:31   #31
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Originally Posted by Evan View Post
I don't like Schionning designs. They have way too many curved deck surfaces that are not safe. I went aboard a Wildcat and nearly slipped off the boat getting on. This boat has similar issues. Look at picture 28 in the gallery of the daggerboard to see the deck edge that just falls away right at the lifelines.

It's frankly stupid. You don't get much aero benefits of a radiused deck edge until the ratio of height of the freeboard to the radius is like 4:1 or better. In other words, you need a 1' radius for a 4' freeboard for it to matter to the bluff side hull.

This particular boat has a lot of things that look good, but aren't that practical. The dining room table looks like it will seat 4 in a pinch, and the settee lacks backrests.

The solar panels are mounted flush on the cabin top where they will be shaded by the mainsail and will heat up without ventilation air behind them.

The design of the bridle attachment to the front cross beam puts all the load on the outboard uni straps.

Having said all that, I have no doubt she's a fast boat.
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Old 04-07-2008, 23:29   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Evan View Post
I don't like Schionning designs. They have way too many curved deck surfaces that are not safe. I went aboard a Wildcat and nearly slipped off the boat getting on. This boat has similar issues. Look at picture 28 in the gallery of the daggerboard to see the deck edge that just falls away right at the lifelines.

It's frankly stupid. You don't get much aero benefits of a radiused deck edge until the ratio of height of the freeboard to the radius is like 4:1 or better. In other words, you need a 1' radius for a 4' freeboard for it to matter to the bluff side hull.

This particular boat has a lot of things that look good, but aren't that practical. The dining room table looks like it will seat 4 in a pinch, and the settee lacks backrests.

The solar panels are mounted flush on the cabin top where they will be shaded by the mainsail and will heat up without ventilation air behind them.

The design of the bridle attachment to the front cross beam puts all the load on the outboard uni straps.

Having said all that, I have no doubt she's a fast boat.

There has been quite a bit written on the effect of a radiused deck edge and everything I have seen suggests that either the relative influence is greatest for a small radius with an increase providing diminishing returns or the other theory suggests a more linear relationship to the radius. One designer had presented, supposedly from practicle testing, that the influence was along the lines of reducing the apparent freeboard by 1.5 times the radius. John Eiland provided a link to the first theory in another thread here on Cruisers. The second theory I have seen is amongst the mountain I have read and I can't remember who it was. Both of these seem plausible. I fail to see how an effect is minor untill it hits some magic ratio such as 4:1 although the "Waterline" is nearly at this number if it is anything like the "Wilderness" design. Mine is 400mm radius on 1750mm freeboard.

I see that a radiused deck edge could be problematic if the lifelines are very outboard but if the stauntions are mounted near the start of the curve I think it becomes minor except when docking. I have about 600mm of flat deck before the radius starts and my stauntions will be mounted close to this line. OK when docking I will have to lean on the lines to see over but I think this is a relatively minor inconvienience.

The salon table is small but if it fits the mission profile then its fine and I would think this boat is more of a weekend warrior or a cruiser for a couple rather than a condomaran.

Couldn't agree more the recessed panels are dumb.

The bridle attachments have quite a lot of uni running around the forebeam which in turn has a lot of laminate tying it and the beam back into the hull and bulkhead. I feel it would be far stronger than many which I have seen that just mount some sort of pad eye to the hull with a backing plate.

Mike
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Old 05-07-2008, 04:43   #33
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“Different and Personal” ….which should be what every person should dream about and unhappily only a few ever achieve.

My congratulations to the Owner, the Designer and most importantly the Builders who made this dream a reality.
Tip your hats gentlemen! :cubalibre
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Old 10-07-2008, 23:09   #34
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Gentlemen (and ladies),

As owner and co-builder of Barrocka, I am very flattered by the comments on this thread. There has also been some very interesting discussions, some of which I agree with wholeheartedly and some of which I disagree with, having the advantage of experience.

I'm not saying that we didn't make any mistakes. We are continually learning like everyone else but I have had five years of cruising on Barrocka and a full refit to correct what I didn't like.

I would like to point out that while Jeff was responsible for the original design of the Waterline, both Craig and I contributed greatly to the design of Barrocka, both before and during the build. Craig now has his own Multihull Design business and his first 38ft cats are on the water. See Spirited Designs - Home of the Spirited 380 by Craig Schionning

I'd be happy to answer any questions that anyone has.
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Old 11-07-2008, 00:49   #35
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Gentlemen (and ladies),

As owner and co-builder of Barrocka, I am very flattered by the comments on this thread. There has also been some very interesting discussions, some of which I agree with wholeheartedly and some of which I disagree with, having the advantage of experience.

I'm not saying that we didn't make any mistakes. We are continually learning like everyone else but I have had five years of cruising on Barrocka and a full refit to correct what I didn't like.

I would like to point out that while Jeff was responsible for the original design of the Waterline, both Craig and I contributed greatly to the design of Barrocka, both before and during the build. Craig now has his own Multihull Design business and his first 38ft cats are on the water. See Spirited Designs - Home of the Spirited 380 by Craig Schionning

I'd be happy to answer any questions that anyone has.
It's great to see someone doing design work that has actually built a boat and cruised extensively in it-you know that he knows the practical end as well as the theoretical end. Nice work!
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Old 11-07-2008, 06:31   #36
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Originally Posted by Barrockan View Post
Gentlemen (and ladies),

As owner and co-builder of Barrocka, I am very flattered by the comments on this thread. There has also been some very interesting discussions, some of which I agree with wholeheartedly and some of which I disagree with, having the advantage of experience.

I'm not saying that we didn't make any mistakes. We are continually learning like everyone else but I have had five years of cruising on Barrocka and a full refit to correct what I didn't like.

I would like to point out that while Jeff was responsible for the original design of the Waterline, both Craig and I contributed greatly to the design of Barrocka, both before and during the build. Craig now has his own Multihull Design business and his first 38ft cats are on the water. See Spirited Designs - Home of the Spirited 380 by Craig Schionning

I'd be happy to answer any questions that anyone has.
Having started the post, it's great to hear from the builder and owner. It is a beautiful design and execution. I do have a few questions. In your full refit what were the things you changed that you found you didn't like? It appears the boat doesn't have a sacrificial fin keel. Do you find sailing in shallow waters without a fin keel to help protect the rudders be a problem? What is the mast height off the water? What is the sailing weight? I get so tired of boats being listed in salesman light ship weight which often means little compared to the boat in the water weight. With the hulls little protection from scraping a reef and getting damaged through the surface protection, has the hull be tested for moisture level and water intrusion in the balsa core?
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Old 11-07-2008, 06:54   #37
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The lines of the boat are extremely pleasing to the eye. No doubt she is a SWEET sailor too. To flatten out the deck a wee bit would be about the only improvement I can see. Good footing is as important as good sailing. Nothing worse than slipping off of your own boat. I know I have been thrown from mine while single-handing. THANK GOODNESS the harness held....that was a close one!

The boat, and harness
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Old 13-07-2008, 19:18   #38
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Having started the post, it's great to hear from the builder and owner. It is a beautiful design and execution. I do have a few questions. In your full refit what were the things you changed that you found you didn't like? It appears the boat doesn't have a sacrificial fin keel. Do you find sailing in shallow waters without a fin keel to help protect the rudders be a problem? What is the mast height off the water? What is the sailing weight? I get so tired of boats being listed in salesman light ship weight which often means little compared to the boat in the water weight. With the hulls little protection from scraping a reef and getting damaged through the surface protection, has the hull be tested for moisture level and water intrusion in the balsa core?
There were many small changes. Originally the air intakes for the blowers to the Outboards were located under the top transom step. Occasionally if you got a big wave up there while crossing a bar, then the blower would suck seawater and blow it into the engine hood. The blower bearings would fail a week or two later. To fix this, we used the top step locker (which also houses steering components) as a dorade, moving the blower intake to its top inside corner and putting two vents in the front of it. Seawater that enters the locker runs out the drains without effecting the air flow.

Originally we had used a non acidic silicone around the windscreens. This failed due to the expansion and contaction of the acrylic. It lost its bond with the edge of the acrylic. We have know used an automotive type wndscreen sealant which has a greater elastisity and will bond to the acrylic better.

We changed the paint system from Jotun Emperite 300 to Awlgrip 2000. This is a much more expensive paint system but it is very easy to patch and buff in when it is damaged.

The sail locker has a large internal drainage channel around the opening but high pressure water was squirting over the channel. We built a thin lip around the inside locker lid so that sits down in the drainage channel when closed. This intercepts the water and directs it down into the drain. No more wet sails.

Other things included raising the height of the mast rotation block anchor points to stop the blocks damaging the paint and fairing. Strengthening the attachment point for the control lines on the mast rotation spanner. This had been broken twice.

On the boom we removed the single line reefing equipment (we had already stopped using it long before in order to simplify) and glassed on the bottom inspection panels to give it better longitudinal rotational resistance. The lower inspection panels were necessary to allow access to the single line reefing and were screwed on. The twisting moment off the boom would wind the screws out even if they were beaded in Sikaflex. This was annoying, however glassing the bottom on now means that the boom has a full box section and will be stronger. It has added a few Kgs though.

Numerous other small things that I won't bother you with. This is in addition to many major items that we changed or updated in the five years that we were cruising.

She does not have any keels. The rudders are in a cassette system which kicks up for beaching or on impact with a UFO. The breakaway system is very simple but works very well. The rudder cassettes are held down buy a simple cabinet/locker bolt positioned under the sugar scoop. When the bolt is in the closed position it enters a s/s saddle that is screwed onto the bottom of the cassete with 6G x 12 mm screws. On impact these rip out of the soft epoxy/spheres core they are bedded in letting the cassette pop up. This saved a rudder 3 times. To continue sailing there is a backup system to hold them down. At anchor the cores are re-filled with a little epoxy filler and another saddle screwed on.

The dagger boards have a sacrificial foam end built in so that they will not damage the case on impact. We had damage to one from a log but easily repaired.

The first 500mm of the bows are solid foam in front of the stem. Log impacts produced some large dents in this at the waterline but the bows then seem to ride over the object.

Because we have a draft of 500mm and we live in Australia we do end up crossing some very shallow bars or negotiating very shallow areas in rivers. Sometimes we will lift the rudders up and run the engines in half down position at low revs to negotiate 6-700mm of water (on the flood of course). The bottom is always sand or mud. The rivers that enter the Gulf of Carpentaria are particularly shallow at their entrances but open into a wonderland full of crocs and fish (up to 400 pound cod) plus mudcrabs, prawns and birdlife.

The mast is a conservative 18 m. The exact height of the water would be more lie 21m but I'm not exactly sure. (We don't have any power wires to worry about where we sail).

Jeff calculated that she was 6.7 tonnes when we launch by measuring the waterline and calculating the displacement. That was with fuel and anchors, chain ect aboard but not our cruising load. After that I am simply guessing but we must have been in excess of 8 tonnes in our last trip to the islands from NZ. We had an enormous amount of food and supplies on board plus around 200 litres of wine and 50 cases of beer. She still sailed was down to the top of the boot stripe but still sailed well. I took it easy but we still sailed 200 mile days.

I would definitely know if I had scraped a reef but to answer your Qn. No, we have not tested the balsa for moisture as that would entail drilling holes in perfectly good hulls. On top of the glass are the normal flow coats of epoxy,then epoxy fairing compound, then we put coats of copper epoxy antifoul system on top of that as an additional sealant layer. The normal antifoul is on top of that. A visual inspection is all that is necessary to ensure that the hull has not been damaged.
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Old 13-07-2008, 19:38   #39
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The lines of the boat are extremely pleasing to the eye. No doubt she is a SWEET sailor too. To flatten out the deck a wee bit would be about the only improvement I can see. Good footing is as important as good sailing. Nothing worse than slipping off of your own boat. I know I have been thrown from mine while single-handing. THANK GOODNESS the harness held....that was a close one!

The boat, and harness
Hi Imagine,

Someone else was talking about this also but it never has been a problem. I have fallen off many of my previous boats but only once on Barrocka and that was (my own fault) when I was knocked off the hardtop by the boom (Sailing down wind on autopilot).

The non-skid material we have on Barrocka is the best i have ever had. It is an old fashioned chlororubber based paint with 80 grit oxide mixed in. It leaves a lovely sharp edge and does not pull off with the tape and can be over coated at any time. It looked good after many years and most of all has tremendous grip in any conditions. Its biggest problem is that it will melt for a while if you drop alcohol or petrol on it. It also stains temporarily but rainwater will eventually remove the stain.

I have flexible jack lines that I put on for passages and lead everywhere around the boat. We use them at night in any conditions and during the day in heavy conditions.

She is such a stable platform to work on, I have not come remotely close to feeling like I could slip.

Anyway I'm glad your harness was strong enough to hold you. How did you get back aboard or did it stop you before you got to the water?
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Old 13-07-2008, 20:51   #40
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There were many small changes. Originally the air intakes for the blowers to the Outboards were located under the top transom step. Occasionally if you got a big wave up there while crossing a bar, then the blower would suck seawater and blow it into the engine hood. The blower bearings would fail a week or two later. To fix this, we used the top step locker (which also houses steering components) as a dorade, moving the blower intake to its top inside corner and putting two vents in the front of it. Seawater that enters the locker runs out the drains without effecting the air flow.

.
Light flicks on.

Now I know where to put the air intakes on my powercat, straight through the back beam B/H into the aft lazarette.

So simple but had been causing me a bit of grief thinking about it as I didnt want them through the side of the hull or in the cockpit area

Thanks

Dave
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Old 14-07-2008, 01:11   #41
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The Schionnings and others I have seen have a secondary outer hull side where the steps are with about a 3 or 4" gap. I was going to put the intake in there with a dorade arrangement and then have an outlet back up into the cockpit seating.
Thread drift - Sorry

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Old 14-07-2008, 01:15   #42
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Barrockan
Nice boat, one problem however.
You have raised the bar for me to aim at, thanks MATE.

Mike
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Old 23-07-2008, 19:56   #43
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You can always just buy this one Mike!

Are there any pics of yours on the web? I'd like to take a look at the bi-Rig setup.
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Old 23-07-2008, 20:27   #44
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It is but you need a cat that can sleep 12 for charter service with 4 to 6 cabins if you plan on getting that loan from dad.
that may be but i've looked and I found that a boat that sleeps 6-8 can bring in 10,000 or more a week usually around 16,000.
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Old 23-07-2008, 20:29   #45
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Or roll up your sleeves and build it. And no, it won't sail like a pig, either! Not as pretty as Barrocka, but safer to walk on the decks- 65 Foot Sailing Catamaran Design by Tim Dunn

Rolling up my sleeves as we speak-
I've tried that one already and he says that I can't use his good white oak lumber.
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