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Old 12-03-2012, 21:35   #181
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Re: The Cons of Owning a Catamaran

Minaret,
I've just read your last post about fugly, and I think this is an area where we can judge boats by their appearance, let's get it on. My boat is kind of strange looking, until you get on it and move about, and sail on it. Just like those voyaging catamarans of the stone age, it's not like a classic proper sailing yacht from the Isle of Wight, it's a catamaran and sailing it has a ambiance that is more like voyaging than the old style, heeled over, racers, of years ago.
If the charter style catamarans are so ugly, why are they so popular? And why are those prices so high?
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Old 12-03-2012, 21:38   #182
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Re: The Cons of Owning a Catamaran

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..........That's why they make people like us sign NDA's. All manafacturers do this to some degree or another
,

No they don't. I know of none in Australia that do. Thats multi/mono and power. Indeed such an agreement I suspect may breach the Trade Practices Act in Australia.

I have sent some of the overseas companies an email this day to ask them if they do what you claim. I will be interested in their response.

Quote:
it's the nature of business, monos too. But a cat is much more susceptible to that sort of thing and much harder to fix once you do break it. I can't tell you how many times I've found major structural fractures all the way through the glass in a cat only to hear back from the manufacterer "Oh that's just normal" or "it's only in the gel" or what have you. The usual corporate runaround. They never want to warranty it and we have to start emailing pictures back and forth until it becomes clear to them they will be sued if they dont stand by their warranty.
Plenty of cats and monos have issues, Forestay fell off a near new catalina in my marina a few months ago, Catalina were quick to deal with it. Some production cat builders from Europe have had the rare issue with a model or a line, but seemed to have dealt with it.

Where do you work, what is your trade/profession?

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As my personal identity is not protected at all on this forum, and I don't want myself or my employer to get sued
Can't get sued in Australia and most of the rest of the developed world for telling the truth.
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Old 12-03-2012, 21:41   #183
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Re: The Cons of Owning a Catamaran

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You've got a lot of posts about the cons, but not many posted by cat sailors, and not many posted by sailors who've sailed on a cat. I grew up sailing dinghies, which are monohulls, and then learned to race and sail on big monohulls. I had an epiphany with the afternoon sun radiating into the mahogany cabin of the old raceboat, I could live here. Then there was the early morning grinding of the winches, which were under water, but we were young and trying to win a race. I would say most of the older sailors have cut their teeth on monohulls and know all about sailing them. The younger sailors who have opted to sail catamarans probably had a good experience chartering, or went sailing on one, or maybe sailed a smaller beach cat and that was their sailing experience that informed them to look for a multihull in a bigger boat.
There are some older sailors who did not have a Hobie cat upbringing, and yet they can compare their monohull experience with a catamaran experience. I have a friend who charters in the Caribbean every couple of years with a group. They bareboat and consider all the aspects when they choose to charter. They consider the area, what the charter companies are offering, and then make their decision. At some point they chose a catamaran and they've never gone back to chartering a monohull. They only argue about which catamaran to charter.
I kind of got into small catamarans, then worked my way down to owning a windsurfer. When I got the chance to own a catamaran, an old plywood boat that didn't cost very much, I jumped on it. I knew it might turn out wrong, but I jumped on it. I've never regretted the experience.
What I have the most regret is with the monohull sailors who haven't gone out on my boat. They are into a different mind game. They've got the draft problem and here on the Chesapeake they've got to worry a lot. Until they sail on my boat they don't take me seriously, like having a big full keel ketch means you are serious, but having a big full keel catamaran is less serious. I sail with them, knowing that if something goes kablooey, it can mean a sinking exercise. It only takes one sail on the cat when they start thinking about, maybe, could this catamaran, maybe, go anywhere? Like the Caribbean?
So I think that is a big drawback of a multihull, having some grief from sailors with preconceived ideas, and having to take them out and get them thinking right.
about the grief, How many multi millionaires were given grief as they grew up. like you cant do this or that and you supposed to follow a certain way of living. People who give grief like that only thinks that majority are right. because of the society, sailing is a also like this i believe a major society of sailers are monohullers, so they will give you grief cause they never took time to understand the reasons why you chose the path you chose. I just hope the world stays the same where 95% of people will give you grief, cause they understood how the other 5% think. There wouldnt be anyone working for me, and there would be too many cat sailors and no monos to pass sailing. Btw i been reading this forum for 3 years. I have never has sailing exp but i want to have a life on a cat or a tri. Loving the dragonfly 1200 and love chris white designs.
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Old 12-03-2012, 21:44   #184
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Re: The Cons of Owning a Catamaran

Ok, minaret, I've just read your last, last, post about production catamaran build quality.
You've got the experience, so you are right. They have problems, but I've been following blogs by cruisers sailing around the world with production cats, and haven't seen much structural issues, except charter cats that were ravaged while in charter.
I'm sure you would agree that a production built boat by a yard with a substantial production run would have a pretty good boat after a couple years, with the upgrades and design changes. Same with some monohulls.
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Old 12-03-2012, 21:52   #185
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Re: The Cons of Owning a Catamaran

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Originally Posted by Factor View Post
,

No they don't. I know of none in Australia that do. Thats multi/mono and power. Indeed such an agreement I suspect may breach the Trade Practices Act in Australia.

I have sent some of the overseas companies an email this day to ask them if they do what you claim. I will be interested in their response.

Plenty of cats and monos have issues, Forestay fell off a near new catalina in my marina a few months ago, Catalina were quick to deal with it. Some production cat builders from Europe have had the rare issue with a model or a line, but seemed to have dealt with it.

Where do you work, what is your trade/profession?
I just think people need to select their boat with their own needs in mind and open eyes. Yes there are plenty of issues in all production boats, mono or multi. They are apples and oranges. Sorry my opinion burns you up so. I'm not about to tell you where I work, I have spent years on this forum NOT doing that. I am a private citizen here and represent no one but myself, don't need to bring my workplace into it. I am not advertising on this forum. Obviously my trade is a shipwright if you didn't know. I'm being as forthright as I can be without risking my job in an effort to provide info. Believe it or not when you have a contract with a major producer to commission their boats you don't want to piss them off in any way, or they will dump you quick. Good luck getting an honest answer from your aussie corps, I'm sure they'll just tell you all about their business practices honestly up front. If you want to get some idea what I do, look up my thread on boatyard pics. Maybe I'll post some catastrophic cat pics there soon, if I can figure out how to do so without getting sued or fired!
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Old 12-03-2012, 21:59   #186
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Re: The Cons of Owning a Catamaran

RPS13,
I understand your post, and I was just trying, as a multihuller, to express my main problem. You are right, when there is a legion of sailors, all doing the same thing, the ones who are doing something else are attacked, this is the nature of sailing, the reason of racing rules, the reason Nat Herreschoff's catamaran was rejected by the yacht clubs, the rejection of multihulls for all these years. And now we see them succeeding in the charter marketplace. The venerable America's Cup is now a catamaran race. We have to get it out of our head, to carry around a big piece of lead is counterintuitive.
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Old 12-03-2012, 22:00   #187
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Re: The Cons of Owning a Catamaran

This poor old horse has been flogged. It has been mentioned before, the boat that fits your needs and budget has no cons. If your looking for a boat that you could circumnavigate with, and have a budget of <$50K, I don't think many multis will fall into those requirements. On the mono side, for that price, there are many good choices. My old Cal 40, and a 70's Gin Fizz that you could send your teenager around the world in by herself. lol
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Old 12-03-2012, 22:01   #188
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Re: The Cons of Owning a Catamaran

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I'm sure you would agree that a production built boat by a yard with a substantial production run would have a pretty good boat after a couple years, with the upgrades and design changes. Same with some monohulls.

I would sorta agree. A couple of years is much too short a time. In a couple of years they will have dealt with only the most egregious warranty problems. I would look for a production run thats been around for a decade or more, and has some design leanings or history of beng used offshore. If you buy a new boat you are often signing up to be a guinea pig for the manufacterers, who may or may not honor all of their warranties. They are great at the fine print gotcha, just like the insurance companies. The exception is big expensive cats, thats a small market and word gets around quick. They tend to roll out the red carpet on warranty issues there to make it look good. But the little guys often get told to suck it, just not in so many words. I've actually been involved in a warranty job where stress fractures weren't covered under warranty, because they were "cosmetic". A bunch of cracks in your ama isn't "cosmetic", especially if you have to replace it to fix it.
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Old 12-03-2012, 22:03   #189
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Re: The Cons of Owning a Catamaran

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Ok, minaret, I've just read your last, last, post about production catamaran build quality.
You've got the experience, so you are right. They have problems, but I've been following blogs by cruisers sailing around the world with production cats, and haven't seen much structural issues, except charter cats that were ravaged while in charter.
I'm sure you would agree that a production built boat by a yard with a substantial production run would have a pretty good boat after a couple years, with the upgrades and design changes. Same with some monohulls.

I think whats missing here is, what was the real design purpose for the boat??

This is a crucial question that's never really asked or answered clearly,

Was the boat (multi or mono) designed as a charter party boat?, an ocean voyaging boat?, or a coastal cruiser or fast coastal racer?...
This simple question can be asked of any designer, if the answer is all of the above in one, chances are pretty good, this may not be the right design for your purpose, even if your wonderful wife loves the interior decorating, and the fact that most production builders market to the decision maker in the family, and if she doesn't like the boat you can bet your not buying it. Unless of course she's the real sailor in the family and then the interior decorating wont be as important as the sail maker or the rig.....
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Old 12-03-2012, 22:12   #190
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Re: The Cons of Owning a Catamaran

Minaret,
There are a lot of boats out there, including mine, that need work, so you are in the right place with the right skills.
I would say that the average amateur, which is what I am, can't get it right. It takes about 3X before things start to click. Get a pro, and what does he do, he has problems with the whole set up, but once things are set right, the pro will rip it out in no time.
Getting back to the design scheme, the production multihulls with a long production will have most of their flaws addressed. The customers are buyers of several boats at a time, and their boats are used day in and day out, so any flaws are exposed right away. The buyers who are not charter fleets gain these improvements. Don't buy boat #1, buy boat #25.
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Old 12-03-2012, 22:15   #191
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Re: The Cons of Owning a Catamaran

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RPS13,
I understand your post, and I was just trying, as a multihuller, to express my main problem. You are right, when there is a legion of sailors, all doing the same thing, the ones who are doing something else are attacked, this is the nature of sailing, the reason of racing rules, the reason Nat Herreschoff's catamaran was rejected by the yacht clubs, the rejection of multihulls for all these years. And now we see them succeeding in the charter marketplace. The venerable America's Cup is now a catamaran race. We have to get it out of our head, to carry around a big piece of lead is counterintuitive.
you seem to be explaining yourself to me a bit. Its ok. Im actually agreeing with you and adding to it is all. People need to use a clean slate to think correctly. like if boats didnt exist and all of a sudden u compare a atlantic 42 to a monohull of a comparable size in terms of not length, but space. Almost everything i see is a pro on a cat. Only thing is that you have to compare big cats to bigger mono's i think most under 40' on a multi is a different game, a bigger multi is has much more advantage than a mono i believe. If this were the case and we all have open minds i doubt there would be many monohulls as majority of society cant think out of the box and dont realize it.

please compare apples to apples and not oranges guys.
one thing i want to add is that people saying cons of a multi is that the beam is wide so they get charged more in berths. but in reality a 40" multi is probably comparable to size as a 60' mono. I dont know what the real comparison is but this is general. you cant say a 40' multi cost more to berth than a 40' mono cause reality the multi is a much bigger boat. and should compare to a boat that as spacious as the multi.

also since this is my first post i actually had another post that didnt seem to make it regarding the guy that said " if your not leaning your not sailing" to make it short. i would say to him that if thats the case i dont want to sail. I'll take a multi and use it to do what it does, which is offshore cruising to many more destinations that is possible than a multi. If that isnt sailing, then i could care less about sailing. thing is that people take words too seriously and are too close minded when they say those words.
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Old 12-03-2012, 22:27   #192
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Re: The Cons of Owning a Catamaran

also for smaller boats or more affordable boats. I wouldnt really want to buy a cat under 40' because of the pounding but in bigger boats this isnt an issue.

if i want to be in the water and have only 100k i would get a mono to live on cause i'd still be in the water and able to make passages without pounding. I dont know for sure as i dont have much research on smaller cats and monos.
but that is what it seems like. but reality is i probably get a small trimaran with that kinda money. corsair and dragonflys are nice. but would want something in the 32' range for what i want to be able to do. I would also get a 24' tri to trailer for weekends for a start of learning sailing. Shoot cant wait to get something to be on the water for days at a time and learn to sail
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Old 12-03-2012, 23:05   #193
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Re: The Cons of Owning a Catamaran

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,
...
Can't get sued in Australia and most of the rest of the developed world for telling the truth.
Sure you can, at least in the good ol' USA. I signed lots of NDA's in my past profession. Some of which are still in effect today, even though I have not had a real job since 2010. I don't have a job to protect, but I can, and likely would be, sued if I now violated some of them. Violating some of these agreements could do real tangible harm to some of the companies (measured in millions of US$) and I expect they would not take that lightly. In my case, these are not agreements hiding ugly secrets, but strategic competitive information -- which these companies not only have a right to protect, but a real practical need to protect.

Also, I strongly believe that everyone has a right to protect their privacy -- which is increasingly difficult to do in the information age.

I appreciate Minarets professional insight and respect his right to privacy and the constraints under which he posts. Thanks for continuing to post.
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Old 12-03-2012, 23:53   #194
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Re: The Cons of Owning a Catamaran

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...even though I have not had a real job since 2010. ...
Ooopps, that should have read "2001".
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Old 13-03-2012, 00:06   #195
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Re: The Cons of Owning a Catamaran

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also for smaller boats or more affordable boats. I wouldnt really want to buy a cat under 40' because of the pounding but in bigger boats this isnt an issue.
Are you actually speaking from experience here?

My last 31ft cat had 800mm of clearance and I never experienced pounding but I have on 40fters that had considerably less.
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