So I am thinking about a cat?

[travellerw]

Originally Posted by stevensuf

Rabbi, Im an electronics engineer, by training, first of all can i say my old sailing instructor changed out his yanmer at 14,000 hours no rebuild and
only because he had a school and new it was soon needing a rebuild an its half the cost of a new one, so went new, i personally had 8000 on mine and met god knows how many with upper 8s to 10,000 on them, yes it can be done,just change the oil n filters regularly and use the thing, lack of use is what kill them.


8k will buy you doyle sails, not Chinese


Yes it is still legal to sell an eu boat for delivery outside of the eu as long as the delivery is done by a company., think about it, no one would be able to export vat free to anyone anywhere. as long as i dont take delivery in the eu or return to the eu i dont need to pay tax.


I bought a katadyne 40e for my old boat ,I paid 1k for it sterling, piece of excrement i thought, you can get good 240v units cheaply its the 12v pumps that are the expensive part. you can get 120l per hour ones for well under 2k US brand new.


1k for solar is a huge amount, cheap 20 quid regulators work fine, panels are under 1 euro per watt and even the cheap ones last ,had them on my last boat 7 years without problems. and with a nice huge plastic roof id mount them all with their own regulators to stop shade issues, buying used panels even cheaper, i could easily put on 1kw of panels for about 600 euro.


The leds for nav lights have to be good quality probably about 80 bucks would do the 3 nav lights and anchor light, the internals you can use cheap 50c chinese units, if they dont die in the first month they last, thats what i did on my last boat and most were still going after 7 years.


3 years back i installed a lovely inverter off amazon, a beast of a unit, looked very much like a rip off of a sterling unit, had an actual transformer in it, not switched mode transistors which fail far more easily than a lump of copper will, huge start surge ,80 amp charger, still going 3 years later no probs, was 3.5kw with 10kw surge and 1 second of surge not milliseconds, cost 400 euro on amazon. It ran the washing machine on his boat , and the fridge an freezer at the same time.



Hatch seal 100 quid? you have not looked very deeply, its just rubber with a profile, Many of the hatches on my old boat leaked, i replaced none, i coated them with axle grease once every 2 months, works a treat. Any silicone or lithium based grease will make a great seal and
you can still open them and it softens the seal through time an makes
them pliable again.



Batteries yes, i forgot about that, nice big solar array,dont use much power at night,then 2 180 amp units will do fine 360 euro for a couple of exides, get at least 4 years out of them, regular flooded batteries.





Most of the ex charter boats ive seen have actually had half decent upholstery, lets face it youd be pissed to pay 4k a week and getting a boat with frayed seats.


You need to remember these boats are just coming out of charter, they have to be presentable to the charterers , ive seen a few and none had worn, torn frayed upholstery or lazy bags or biminis etc Virtually all systems work as paying guests soon complain when the fridge cuts out or the shower wont drain. Imagine the insurance nightmare if someone died from a ruptured gas pipe that was out of date!


Battery monitor? seriously if under 12v youre getting close to dud if floating at 12.6 your charged, i dont need a battery meter, the volt meter that is already there will do fine for me.


Life rafts are usually in service or just out recently.


Sure lots of these things will go along the way and you fix as need be, but most dont need changed immediately.


Go and look at some ex charter boats for sale, you'll find more things work on them than on the average private boat of the same age, they cannot afford paying guest to be whining about things not working, not in the internet age where anyone can broadcast complaints far and wide.


I know you're trying to be realistic in the way you would do things.


heres one


https://www.yachtworld.co.uk/boats/2...nique-%28FR%29


The only major thing id say from looking at the net is a new mainsail, it even has a furling chute , a solar panel, little rib, the guy just crossed the pond, was 10 yrs in charter, what do you think it would need to do another crossing?


Personally id do the standing rigging, but remember france aint the Caribbean, they get winters an its the uv that rots stainless, so the rigging
there will last a lot more than 10 yrs, in scotland people dont replace rigging even at 35yrs its ok,no bloody sun!


Croatia is cold in the winter, probably get at least 15yrs + on the standing rigging there.


I doubt this boat would need much more than luxuries than necessities, if it were in europe id be away looking at it!



Really, if you have good sails, rigging you can trust and 2 engines that start and go, what more do you need? gps , sextant an charts.

Oh man... I have a great buddy boat that you would get along famously with.. Hell, this one post made me think it might be him trolling the forum. Well maybe you would get along after a quick fight (he's Irish).

He looks at everything just like you do. Hell, the dirty bugger dragged a sail out of the trash in Martinique. A beautiful main off a 50ft catamaran that the owner had deemed "blown out". Took it to a sailmaker and is having it recut for his boat. Nice new mailsail for $600, might be 8 months old.

Every solar panel on his boat was pulled from the trash. He has like 500W, of all "garbage" panels.

[stevensuf]

Hey Im Scottish, we are not that bad, though in my last marina i remember seeing a guy swap out batteries, shiny 54ds jeanneau, i asked what he was doing with the old batteries, he said binning them, i asked if i could have them , he said sure, saves me the hard work of taking them to the trash, loaded them into the back of my car, took them to the scrap merchant and got 140 UK pounds for them, 20 mins work!


I did buy him a couple of beers the next time i saw him.

[Palarran]

You guys would actually throw batteries in the trash like that? WTF, they don't even do that in the Caribbean.

[rabbi]

Originally Posted by stevensuf

8k will buy you doyle sails, not Chinese

I would be happy if you could share your source as based on this pricing a set of new doyle sails for my boat should be around 5-6k

I have seen "sailmakers" on the internet offering their "economic sails" for a 380 for about 5k, but these are just internet retailers using the cheapest sailmaker somewhere in the world.

Originally Posted by stevensuf

Yes it is still legal to sell an eu boat for delivery outside of the eu as long as the delivery is done by a company., think about it, no one would be able to export vat free to anyone anywhere. as long as i dont take delivery in the eu or return to the eu i dont need to pay tax.

A private owner with EU residency can't legally export a used boat. VAT will be due at the moment of sale between the selling comany and you as a private owner with EU residency. There is no export scheme for used boats that I am aware of.

You could ask a non EU resident to buy the boat for you, export it and sell it to you.

Or you could ask the selling company to deliver the boat outside the EU for handover. I doubt many companies are willing to do that unless all is paid upfront.

How will you move the boat from Turkey to Gibraltar without touching EU waters? Granted it will most likely work out well and chances of being caught are slim but nevertheless it's illegal for you as the beneficiary owner to use the boat in EU waters.

Originally Posted by stevensuf

I bought a katadyne 40e for my old boat ,I paid 1k for it sterling, piece of excrement i thought, you can get good 240v units cheaply its the 12v pumps that are the expensive part. you can get 120l per hour ones for well under 2k US brand new.

You mean the DIY units based on Kärcher pumps? Or do you have a source for a professional quality watermaker for 2k?

Originally Posted by stevensuf

1k for solar is a huge amount, cheap 20 quid regulators work fine, panels are under 1 euro per watt and even the cheap ones last ,had them on my last boat 7 years without problems. and with a nice huge plastic roof id mount them all with their own regulators to stop shade issues, buying used panels even cheaper, i could easily put on 1kw of panels for about 600 euro.

I'd figure around 60-70ct per Wp for cheap panels. For regulators I'd use good quality as in my experience it seems to matter more than quality of panels. I used Victron MPPT 75/15 units, one per panel. Then add some money for the tiny bits like tinned wire, fuses, connectors, etc and something to mount them on the curved bimini / roof without looking too shabby and you are facing 1k easily for 600Wp.

Originally Posted by stevensuf

The leds for nav lights have to be good quality probably about 80 bucks would do the 3 nav lights and anchor light, the internals you can use cheap 50c chinese units, if they dont die in the first month they last, thats what i did on my last boat and most were still going after 7 years.

You can't legally convert existing navlights using LEDs, as the sector separation requires exact alignment of the filament, something that LED bulbs just can't provide. Plus the green side becomes pale blue.
If you want to replace all nav lights (red,green, stern and anchor) with good quality legal LED nav lights we are talking about 200-300 Euro.


I have never found any 50ct warmwhite G4 LED with an output of at least 250lm that survives 14v when motoring at night, or worse being plugged into shore power. The cheapest I found were about 4-5 Euro each, and IIRC our boat has 26 lights (the 440 has many more I guess).

Originally Posted by stevensuf

Hatch seal 100 quid? you have not looked very deeply, its just rubber with a profile, Many of the hatches on my old boat leaked, i replaced none, i coated them with axle grease once every 2 months, works a treat. Any silicone or lithium based grease will make a great seal and
you can still open them and it softens the seal through time an makes
them pliable again.

I have done hatch seals on my FP Mahe for 2 Euro per meter. But FP uses Goiot hatches, which have a simple rubber profile glued into the base.

Lagoon uses Lewmar low profile hatches, a very different beast. You need to find their special seal profile by the meter and some glue that can reliably (!) butt-join the ends as the ends get quite some tension when you assemble the hatch lid. I tried and failed.
In the end I found the cheapest source for original Lewmar seals to be about 80 Euro each plus PP.

Originally Posted by stevensuf

Batteries yes, i forgot about that, nice big solar array,dont use much power at night,then 2 180 amp units will do fine 360 euro for a couple of exides, get at least 4 years out of them, regular flooded batteries.

I totally agree regarding the sizing of the battery bank. Oversized solar tops large battery bank anytime.
But 4 years doesn't really match my experience with Exide. We now paid the premium for excellent Trojan traction batteries.
Battery monitor is in my opinion required to understand whats going on. An ampere meter is also enough but not that much cheaper.

Originally Posted by stevensuf

Most of the ex charter boats ive seen have actually had half decent upholstery, lets face it youd be pissed to pay 4k a week and getting a boat with frayed seats.


You need to remember these boats are just coming out of charter, they have to be presentable to the charterers , ive seen a few and none had worn, torn frayed upholstery or lazy bags or biminis etc Virtually all systems work as paying guests soon complain when the fridge cuts out or the shower wont drain. Imagine the insurance nightmare if someone died from a ruptured gas pipe that was out of date!

Good luck finding a charter boat with gas hoses still in service date. Doesn't mean a desaster is about to happen but its just one of the things no one cares about. Unless a periodical gas inspection is required by law in that country.


Charter companies know when a certain boat will leave the fleet. A unit that has reached the end of its useful time is no longer an asset. They don't do much work on these units unless absolutely required or if they can charge the owner for the works done.
If a certain device / part is moveable ( lazybags, upholstery, electronics, door hinges, etc ) its sometimes swapped between the for-sale boats and those still in service. Simply because its quicker than waiting for new parts, plus its not their problem but the owner's who lives far away.

Remember you are looking at the low priced boats from cheapo charter companies. Good boats from reputable charter companies that take the phase out works seriously are not advertised at bottom prices. They know what they can ask.

Originally Posted by stevensuf

https://www.yachtworld.co.uk/boats/2...nique-%28FR%29


The only major thing id say from looking at the net is a new mainsail, it even has a furling chute , a solar panel, little rib, the guy just crossed the pond, was 10 yrs in charter, what do you think it would need to do another crossing?

I don't know the boat in question, but I have bought and refitted three FP and Lagoon cats between 36 and 41ft over the last few years. To find these boats I have visited maybe 30 or 40 low-priced cats over the years, including a disappointing trip to the Caribbean to scout the market, and have followed the internet sites quite closely.
I have seen cats in sailaway condition and cheap cats but never a cheap sailaway cat. All cheap boats had their issues. Some obvious and some hidden, many were just worn in too many aspects.
Very few boats at bottom prices had a broker's /owner's description that matched actual condition.

You need plenty of time, travel budget, dedication, cash and a good portion of luck to find a bargain cat.

[travellerw]

Originally Posted by rabbi

I would be happy if you could share your source as based on this pricing a set of new doyle sails for my boat should be around 5-6k

I have seen "sailmakers" on the internet offering their "economic sails" for a 380 for about 5k, but these are just internet retailers using the cheapest sailmaker somewhere in the world.

Contact Doyle Sails in Barbados. I have heard from a few cruisers that their quotes were competative with China Sail Loft and Far East Sails. I have also been told that they produce a better product.

However, unless you are here in the Caribbean, I think the shipping is higher than from the East.

[travellerw]

Originally Posted by stevensuf

Hey Im Scottish, we are not that bad, though in my last marina i remember seeing a guy swap out batteries, shiny 54ds jeanneau, i asked what he was doing with the old batteries, he said binning them, i asked if i could have them , he said sure, saves me the hard work of taking them to the trash, loaded them into the back of my car, took them to the scrap merchant and got 140 UK pounds for them, 20 mins work!


I did buy him a couple of beers the next time i saw him.

Sorry, I noticed you were Scotish (and he is Irish). Everytime I have had a few pints with a Scot and a Irishman, its turned to a scuffle, then best of friends. I just assumed thats how those two bond

Oh, you would get along really well. Same as the solar panels, not one battery on his boat has he ever bought (in 20 years of cruising). He always finds decent cast offs that give him a year or so. Sometimes he needs to put EDTA in them, but pretty much gets a year minimum on his "cast off banks".

I'm not saying you seem the like the guy to cobble a boat together on cast offs and dumpster diving. You just seem like the kind of guy that finds the shrewd deals.

Like I said.. I wish you luck.. Let me know if you want to talk with someone that has owned one of the boats mentioned here (Lagoon 440, Leopard, Lipari, ect). I have friends who have owned (operative word, not OWN) each of those boats (all with families). I'm sure they would be happy to give you the skinny on their feelings.

[rabbi]

Anchoring:
IIRC 440s of that vintage are equipped with Leroy Somer windlass. No longer in business and no spare part available. 1500 to replace if its still original.
A typical charter boat will have too short & too old chain, 1000 to replace
Adequate anchor is 300+ euro, or more if you want Rocna etc. Unless you are happy with anchors typically found on scrapyards.

The one you listed says main anchor is a delta, but the pictures show a Britany. So either wrong description or outdated pictures - as usual.


I'm in the same boat as you, and I actually enjoy the refit project as much as I enjoy the cruise afterwards! impossible is nothing but a cruise ready 440 ain't cheap at the end.
Just be realistic and keep some backup cash for the unexpected.

Happy boat hunting season!

[stevensuf]

Originally Posted by rabbi

Anchoring:
IIRC 440s of that vintage are equipped with Leroy Somer windlass. No longer in business and no spare part available. 1500 to replace if its still original.
A typical charter boat will have too short & too old chain, 1000 to replace
Adequate anchor is 300+ euro, or more if you want Rocna etc. Unless you are happy with anchors typically found on scrapyards.

The one you listed says main anchor is a delta, but the pictures show a Britany. So either wrong description or outdated pictures - as usual.


I'm in the same boat as you, and I actually enjoy the refit project as much as I enjoy the cruise afterwards! impossible is nothing but a cruise ready 440 ain't cheap at the end.
Just be realistic and keep some backup cash for the unexpected.

Happy boat hunting season!

OK i didnt know about the windlass thats something you need to deal with , if and when it happens.


Last boat i bought 80m of 10mm unused chain 2nd hand for 200 quid an a kobra 2 anchor, which in most anchor tests scored just as good as mansons, rocnas etc an cost about 140 uk pounds for a 22kg model.


Sure it would be about 500 quid for new chain and 140 for the anchor.


I did price sand blasting and galvanizing of the old chain, but in the end it was cheaper buying new, luckily i got new 2nd hand, but we are still closer to 650 than 1300, i dunno which currency you think in, but im in UK pounds or euros.


I thin i got 30 quid for scrap for the old chain, waste not want not!


I think the difference in our pricing is you are opting more for top end gear, where i am more buy the cheapest stuff that i think will do the job.


Eg the cheap 180 euro 3kw inverter i put on my boat was still working 7 years later, granted the power led indicator had gone, but it still worked fine, though in your case id imagine you opting for a 1000 euro plus victron or the like.


I used to have an importation business in Scotland, bringing in cheap chinese electronics, some failure rates were as high as 1 in 10, average was about 1 in 30, do the math, if a victron inverter is 6x the price of the cheap chinese one, and maybe has a failure rate of 1 in 100 instead of 1 in 30, it still does not represent value. And usually the failures take place in the first few months, if they survive this time period then they usually last many years, if they fail at the start you still have some warranty, so add that to the equation and you find its far cheaper to buy the cheap Chinese electronics in many cases. Ok so they may be 90% efficient instead of 95%, they may have 10% distortion instead of 3% but that makes no difference to the washing machine.

[harvey hellman]

We have a 440 that we have done 20,000 nm on.
Flybridge is awesome,bad weather helm from inside,it has a main sheet release in back cockpit,never used it. Been hit by 55 knots,we just reduced sail all good. Great safe Cat.

[rabbi]

Originally Posted by stevensuf

OK i didnt know about the windlass thats something you need to deal with , if and when it happens.


Last boat i bought 80m of 10mm unused chain 2nd hand for 200 quid an a kobra 2 anchor, which in most anchor tests scored just as good as mansons, rocnas etc an cost about 140 uk pounds for a 22kg model.


Sure it would be about 500 quid for new chain and 140 for the anchor.


I did price sand blasting and galvanizing of the old chain, but in the end it was cheaper buying new, luckily i got new 2nd hand, but we are still closer to 650 than 1300, i dunno which currency you think in, but im in UK pounds or euros.


I thin i got 30 quid for scrap for the old chain, waste not want not!


I think the difference in our pricing is you are opting more for top end gear, where i am more buy the cheapest stuff that i think will do the job.


Eg the cheap 180 euro 3kw inverter i put on my boat was still working 7 years later, granted the power led indicator had gone, but it still worked fine, though in your case id imagine you opting for a 1000 euro plus victron or the like.


I used to have an importation business in Scotland, bringing in cheap chinese electronics, some failure rates were as high as 1 in 10, average was about 1 in 30, do the math, if a victron inverter is 6x the price of the cheap chinese one, and maybe has a failure rate of 1 in 100 instead of 1 in 30, it still does not represent value. And usually the failures take place in the first few months, if they survive this time period then they usually last many years, if they fail at the start you still have some warranty, so add that to the equation and you find its far cheaper to buy the cheap Chinese electronics in many cases. Ok so they may be 90% efficient instead of 95%, they may have 10% distortion instead of 3% but that makes no difference to the washing machine.

My always budget based on new / unused parts as buying second hand is just pure luck. If you are lucky you can save a buck or two, but you can't do your budget based on second hand luck.

Second hand will suffer from lack of trust, unless its a well known brand and unused. For example I want a reliable anchor setup, and not some cheap eastern european chain that turns into a pile of rust in short order - if it does not break in a storm due to a poor welding job.
I don't want / need high end like G70 or stainless, but something that is reasonable and not just plain cheap. The cheapest noname 10mm chain I found in germany was 8,50 Euro per meter including S&H with no test certificate. I bought a meter to check it out, the galvanization was so thin it corroded heavily within two weeks in saltwater. Too cheap IMO

My choice was 10mm maggigroup G40 chain, 75m @ 900 Euro including S&H. For world cruising on a 440 it would be 100m of 10mm or maybe even 12mm so we are talking about roughly 1200 euro for good quality chain.
Unlikely you will find it cheaper than 1200 Euro, unless you run into a second hand deal.

22kg Kobra 2 is too small, and does a genuine 22kg Kobra 2 exist, I am only aware of 20kg and 25kg?
Our FP Mahe came with a 20kg Kobra 2 and it dragged slowly in just 45kn of wind (burried in fine sand with lots of chain out).
Something like 30+kg is more appropriate for a 440 I think. Unless you like dragging anchor at night. A 30kg Kobra is around 300 Euro.

So it's even 1500 for anchor and chain, unless you go for cheapest noname stuff, or go second hand.


I think there is a difference in resale value if a boat has well known equipment vs cheapest low end equipment. Whenever I see a boat listing with outdated electronics mixed with low-end Nasa instruments, a chinese inverter and noname lead acid starter batteries I know what to expect.

[stevensuf]

See theres one thing i never thought out loud, the 20 kg *22 typo, kobra 2 we had on ours was great, but hey a mono has so much less windage. Upsize anchor required for weight by a size or 2 to accommodate the extra windage!!

[rabbi]

Originally Posted by stevensuf

See theres one thing i never thought out loud, the 20 kg *22 typo, kobra 2 we had on ours was great, but hey a mono has so much less windage. Upsize anchor required for weight by a size or 2 to accommodate the extra windage!!

Same with standing rigging, sail cloth weight, blocks and other hardware. A cat doesn't heel so loads are higher in a blow. I had a lewmar block explode in a blow recently although already at the second reef. another 120 euro down the toilet and i felt lucky this was all that was damaged

[jmh2002]

I realise it goes against all thoughts of weight management, but for serious cruising it makes total sense to go significantly up in size in terms of both the anchor and the chain. Save weight somewhere else.

The upside of the piece of mind is great, but the everyday practical benefits are useful too.

A much heavier anchor and chain will provide better holding in a poor bottom, which is often common in many different cruising locations.

It will also enable the use of less scope, which reduces swinging (especially on a multihull or other high windage vessel) which again provides better holding, reduces stress on the boat and gear, is helpful in a crowded anchorage, as well as also just being more comfortable for life onboard.

Undersized, or even just 'at spec' anchoring gear seems a common mistake.

[hzcruiser]

Originally Posted by travellerw

My 40ft cat consumes about 2.25l/hour at 4-5 knots/hour (one motor running). To make that speed, I need my one 30hp motor to be at about 2000rpm (all motor no sail). However, that can quickly go down to 3 knots/hour with any wind or current. On the upside I can usually push that to 6 knots/hour if there is even a slight breeze. If I want to motor at 6.5 knots/hour then my consumption doubles (both motors running).

Those numbers are pretty consistent with other similar sized cats (Maybe slightly high).

Every time I read that what should not be mentioned I go oompf.... dang... ouch... OUCH! Worse than Ah/h.

[Kenomac]

Originally Posted by stevensuf

Does anyone have any real experience of the lagoon 440, I like the idea of the flybridge, great for many reasons, but i feel if things kicked off, it is far to get to in an emergency and feel i dont fancy sitting up there in bad weather.

We explored the idea of changing over to a catamaran during the past two years, but then decided to stick with a monohull. For the price of a Lagoon 440, you can buy lots of monohull these days.