So How High Will a Cat Point?

[tsmwebb]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

I think that this is one subject where it is very hard to gather truly comparable numbers. Like the size of fish people catch, this is a subject which seems to induce not just lying, but involuntary self-deception.

Of course, this cuts both ways. I remember taking a buddy for a ride in my boat in the Bay of Islands in stiff breeze. He was politely complimentary but allowed us how, of course, his quick mono would point higher and therefor get to weather faster. Later, sailing out of La Paz in company directly into a stiff Norther we dropped him over the horizon so quickly that he called the experience "soul destroying". Now this guy is a technically excellent sailor with an enviable race record on a boat that is considered pretty quick by cruising standards and he had sailed on my cat and seen the numbers but he was still able to deceive himself right up until we raced. We all like to think our boats are wonderful (and mostly they are, too). But, that loyalty can make some kinds of assessments harder to internalize... Just sayin...

Tom.

[Steve Thompson]

My cat dosn't point that good at all and if I try I loose speed rapidly as well as going sideways.Do I care not really.I choose my boat for cruising which I consider reaching or running.If I have to sail to weather thats ok after considering other options.
My wife can still cook a nice meal going to windward in 30 knots standing upright.As a long time cat owner I believe most mono hulls point higher than multis in cruising boats
cheers STEVE

[Bash]

My mono points exceptionally well for a cruiser; in most conditions my best VMG close-hauled is around 35 degrees apparent. If, in a multihull, your best VMG comes at an angle 10 to 15 degrees lower, this is irrelevant, comparatively. The bottom line is that if your VMG is higher than mine, you will get there sooner regardless of the angles.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by tsmwebb

Upwind in hard conditions is miserable on any sail boat.


Tom.

Not just miserable. In 30+ knots, it's impossible in most cruising boats to go to weather under sail, particularly, sloop rig boats with roller furling As you reef, pointing ability deteriorates. And big seas will push you off the wind, too.

The main advantage of cutter rigs in my opinion is you have a ready rigged headsail for such conditions. Even with that, however, you can forget making much progress dead upwind in 30+.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by tsmwebb

Of course, this cuts both ways. I remember taking a buddy for a ride in my boat in the Bay of Islands in stiff breeze. He was politely complimentary but allowed us how, of course, his quick mono would point higher and therefor get to weather faster. Later, sailing out of La Paz in company directly into a stiff Norther we dropped him over the horizon so quickly that he called the experience "soul destroying". Now this guy is a technically excellent sailor with an enviable race record on a boat that is considered pretty quick by cruising standards and he had sailed on my cat and seen the numbers but he was still able to deceive himself right up until we raced. We all like to think our boats are wonderful (and mostly they are, too). But, that loyalty can make some kinds of assessments harder to internalize... Just sayin...

Tom.

That was actually my point.

Someone mentioned racing - that's actually the only way to know the truth.

[yeloya]

Everything is said enough on pointing ability of a cat vs. mono. I just want to add that the newer design of monos are increasingly less capable of pointing high. They are getting higher and fatter. I don't want to mention a model and make but there are some new cruiser monos that are not tacking to even 100-110 degrees and this with a terrible leeway...
So, there are better sailing boats and worse sailing boats, regardless weather they are mono or multi..
Meanwhile, I don't understand the monos that are increasingly looking like cats. These are very bad compromises; they don't have the full advantages of multis, while they are badly looosing upwind capabilities of monos. Pitty..

Cheers

YEloya

[Factor]

Originally Posted by atoll

seems like the mono is pointing about 20 degrees higher,and thats on flat water,extend that by a 1000 miles and the cat will still be tacking up to the windward mark whilst the guys in the yacht are having a few beers watching the end of the race........

1. Buy a protractor
2. I dont know about you but I rarely sail 1000 miles non stop. Certainly not on any ocean race I have competed in.



As for catty's commentary on his tacking ability, given he steadfastly refuses to indicate what design his boat is then really we dont know how relevant his observation is.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by yeloya

Meanwhile, I don't understand the monos that are increasingly looking like cats. These are very bad compromises; they don't have the full advantages of multis, while they are badly looosing upwind capabilities of monos.

I don't know about that. I was in fact just lusting over the new Moody (actually Dehler) 62. Moody Yachts Is it ugly as sin? Or gorgeous? I'm starting to like it. Compared to the Moody 45 DS and the Beneteau Sense, it is less cat-like in its overall form -- sleeker, with freeboard in better proportion. What I adore about it is the salon at cockpit level with the panoramic view out. That's worth a lot of other compromises, in my opinion. That will really change the whole experience of cruising, because you are still on the water when you are in the salon, instead of being down in a cave (something all cat owners understand, and I appreciate that point of view!). I don't know about its pointing ability, but it has a 10' draft and you can order it with a fully battened mainsail, and so I'm guessing it's no slouch upwind. Yum!

[Joli]

There really should not be much discussion about performance of cruising multi's anymore. There are enough race results with onboard tracking systems for the facts to be self evident.

Looking at the tracks of the RORC 600 you see the GB 66 was slightly lower and slower then the Southern Cross 52 and the Carbon Ocean 82 up and down. It was slightly faster then both when power reaching. Both the Southern Cross and the Carbon Ocean beat the GB around the track on elapsed time.

If you look at the Yapluka 70 the track shows it tacking through ~140 degrees, it's ability to sail upwind was a struggle at best.

Our observations: most cruiser, racer/cruiser multi's we encounter fall somewhere in between these two examples. If we meet an F31 they are very close to a similar sized mono racer cruiser on a windard/leeward course, generally the nod going to the mono. If sailing an olympic triangle the nod goes to the F. When sailing against a Lagoon 41 or something of that ilk they struggle to get around a course. They do however seem to do a better job then the track of the Yapluka.

Here are the tracks:

2011 Fleet Tracking | Tracking | Race Information

[Factor]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

but it has a 10' draft and you can order it with a fully battened mainsail, and so I'm guessing it's no slouch upwind. Yum!

over 3 metres - wow wont see any of these in our part of the world then.

Seriously how do you deal with a boat that needs 4 metres to float.

[Factor]

Originally Posted by atoll

looks like a mono with outriggers,and no ballast?

Yeah - big difference is that big tris hold every RTW record - by a matter of weeks in each case, but yeah - they are clearly rubbish

In anticipation of - yep its all downhill - they also hold equator to equator records by a margin - surely they didnt get downhill all the way.

[shipofools]

Originally Posted by Joli

Our observations: most cruiser, racer/cruiser multi's we encounter fall somewhere in between these two examples. If we meet an F31 they are very close to a similar sized mono racer cruiser on a windard/leeward course, generally the nod going to the mono. If sailing an olympic triangle the nod goes to the F. W

A quick point that I think needs to be emphasized is the size of crew needed, and the comfort on the boat. In race form we can pretty much match any boat on the water with three people onboard a f31, and most of the r/c monohulls have crews of eight+. Also we can leave our beers on the deck, and not worry about them spilling.

From a cruising perspective, I have experienced that I can point as high as any cruising mono if I am willing to give up boat speed. VMG is the way to sail a multi so in most cases it does not make sense to do this. On another note, it is pretty damn awesome in cruising mode to pull up the daggerboard and sail over the bank that most of the other boats are sailing additional miles to avoid.

So on the daggerboard angle, it might not be how high will the boat point, but rather what options does having a daggerboard afford you from a cruising perspective that is a better dialog.

[shipofools]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

Someone mentioned racing - that's actually the only way to know the truth.

To many variables tied to sails, crew, current, conditions, skippers to be realistic imho.

[Mark Johnson]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

Not just miserable. In 30+ knots, it's impossible in most cruising boats to go to weather under sail, particularly, sloop rig boats with roller furling As you reef, pointing ability deteriorates. And big seas will push you off the wind, too.

The main advantage of cutter rigs in my opinion is you have a ready rigged headsail for such conditions. Even with that, however, you can forget making much progress dead upwind in 30+.

Good points... By double reefing the main, striking the headsail, and raising the staysail, our 34' Searunner can sail well, HARD on the wind, in over 40 knots, and 15' seas! This is often with us under the hard dodger and full cockpit enclosure, and relatively civilized. It remains perfectly balanced and relatively safe. Is it fun? HELL NO! If we stay "wedged in" some place all is well, but moving about is a challenge and bruises can't be avoided.

After about a day of this, we usually fall off to perhaps 55 or 60 degrees appairent and the motion becomes quite tollerable.

If we ever need to fight our way off of a lee shore in a gale, it is nice to know that our boat can do it, but the nicest motion in over 30 knots of wind, is a broad reach, (just like on a monohull)

Mark

[LookingForCruiser]

Originally Posted by Curmudgeon

I realize that the best way to sail a cat is to ease off a bit (rather than trying to pinch) and let the nondisplacement hulls pick up speed. But ease off from what?

What are the tacking angles for a well-designed cat without daggerboards? Will such a boat tack through 90 degrees apparent?

What about a well-designed cat with daggerboards. Will such a boat tack through 80 degrees apparent?

I've got a 30' Iroquois catamaran (centerboards rather than daggerboards). I can point < 45 degrees no problem, and that was with crappy nearly-blown-out sails. I had some rig tuning issues last season though, so it pointed remarkably better to starboard than to port.