Size and age. And costs.

[CortoMaltese]

Hi all, after my previous thread (http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...on-124018.html ) i decided to go on with my research; my plan is to get the boat between end 2014/first half 2015. Many thing to decide yet, but would like to have some clear ideas and opinions so to have a better panorama when the moment will come.
My interest is on a cat in the 40/43/44 range: actualy i have some cats shortlisted that fit my needs and that i like very much. Lavezzi, Belize, Orana and Leopard 43.
I am not going to ask wich of these cats is better......been already reading a lot about and have, more or less, a clear idea about them. My question is regarding the fact that they are quite similar boats but often with a big difference in terms of price. So my question is: does it worth spending more for a newer cat when i can get most of what i need in a slightly older boat (4/5 years)? If the conditions of the older boat are comparable to the newer and the price significantly lower, shoud it be an intelligent choice to get something that might cost less (often even in the range of 100k)?
As a practical example, the 3 FP specially belize and orana can have significant price differences and they are a very similar boat imho.
And another question about price/size: is there a general rule regarding costs per foot? I mean: a 44 cat is that much more expensive to mantain compared to a 42?
Thanx in advance and happy Easter to all.

[Southern Star]

Corto, there is no general rule or formula for a price per foot for either the purchase price of, or maintenance costs on a catamaran. Much more important than relatively small differences in LOA are the quality of the build and any problems inherent to the model, the care of the vessel by a previous owner, the age/hours on various systems, the equipment inventory, etc. Simply put, one three year old cat could be a money pit, whereas another that is 7 years old could be in bristol condition with new sails, electronics, low hours on the diesels, etc., etc.

IMO the only real way to get a feel for the market on used boats is by:

1. Reading posts on various boats by various manufacturers on various sites in order to get some idea about inherent problems and, especially if you are looking at a boat that is still under warranty, the manufacturer's reputation for dealing with warranty claims. Unlike cars, IMO there are very few boat manufacturers whose reputations would justify paying a significant (if any) premium just because the boat is still under warranty.

2. Checking out ads for models of interest.

3. This is the most important part - going out and looking at a large number of boats of the type and in the price range that you are interested in. Relying upon internet or print ads can be very deceiving as to condition; indeed, many post dated photos and wildy optomistic descriptions.

Once you have a decent idea of the actual market, you will be in a much better positioni to know what boat(s) you may wish to put an offer on - subject, of course, to a satisfactory survey at your sole discretion. If it sounds like a long and arduous process, it can be. Anything less, however, and you are asking for problems down the road.

Brad

[cwjohm]

Absolutely spot on Brad. The internet will educate you 10%. Boatshows will educate you another 10%. Looking at second hand boats will educate you 30%. Actually owning a boat will fill in the other 50%.

To me having actually owned an Orana, the Orana, Belise and Lavezzi are all very different. The Helia is a significant cut above again, and the boat I should have bought in the first place. Unfortunately I needed to actually own and sail a boat to understand why.

Further, as you state, it is not so much the boat but the state it is in, so you need to have a few favourite boats and keep and open mind in order to snap up the one good deal that may come up in a year of looking.

Chris

[CortoMaltese]

Brad and Chris, thank you, i thought that no one would chime in anymore to give an opinion.
All very good points and conclusions that I am slowly getting to. The only major problem, at least for me, is the possibility to try, see and sail all the boats that i would like. It's still not the moment to pull the trigger, but since now i wonder if i will be able to test all the boats i will shortlist.
Looking on yachtworld sometimes a find an interesting deal in Florida, then happen to see something interesting in Australia......or in Greece.....at the end i would need to increase a % of budget just traveling around and check!
So i only hope, when the moment comes, that i find a honest seller that won't make me cross the world just to find something that doesen't correspond to the ad.
Cheers and thanx again for input.

[Cheechako]

Generally I think the big costs are refurbing and setting up a boat. Most my boats were very minimal maintenance because they were re built prior to going. Bargain boats are NOT.

[weavis]

Originally Posted by CortoMaltese

Hi all, after my previous thread (http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...on-124018.html ) i decided to go on with my research; my plan is to get the boat between end 2014/first half 2015. Many thing to decide yet, but would like to have some clear ideas and opinions so to have a better panorama when the moment will come.
My interest is on a cat in the 40/43/44 range: actualy i have some cats shortlisted that fit my needs and that i like very much. Lavezzi, Belize, Orana and Leopard 43.
I am not going to ask wich of these cats is better......been already reading a lot about and have, more or less, a clear idea about them. My question is regarding the fact that they are quite similar boats but often with a big difference in terms of price. So my question is: does it worth spending more for a newer cat when i can get most of what i need in a slightly older boat (4/5 years)? If the conditions of the older boat are comparable to the newer and the price significantly lower, shoud it be an intelligent choice to get something that might cost less (often even in the range of 100k)?
As a practical example, the 3 FP specially belize and orana can have significant price differences and they are a very similar boat imho.
And another question about price/size: is there a general rule regarding costs per foot? I mean: a 44 cat is that much more expensive to mantain compared to a 42?
Thanx in advance and happy Easter to all.

Hi CortoMaltese.
I am/was in a similar situation to you in choosing a boat. Although I have not pulled the trigger yet, I know exactly which vessel Im going to get.

Its a choice of 3.

Weird I know.

The first one that comes into my time schedule, price range, my specification requirements, and is in excellent condition is the one I will get.

Now most people prefer one manufacturer, one designer, one type over another, and that was also my leaning until I realised that, like you, I liked design features on a number of different manufacturers. I can live with ANY of the features and in the event, 'sacrifice' a feature or features on another boat, but would not miss it for the choice I make.

All the Catamarans I would choose are roughly the same hull speed.
All the Catamarans have similar behaviour in water, and one has retractable centre boards. Do I need that? no...... but it doesnt detract from the choice or add to it. Its just there.

All the Catamarans have proven a proven and reliable track record, and more importantly, known faults which would be one of the things I would want to have been rectified before buying that model.

Do I have a PREFERENCE preference for one model? Yes I do. But Ive been around boats long enough to know that a not well maintained boat of preference is going to cost me a lot of money. Let me rephrase that, Its a waste of MY money. I dont want to keep this next purchase 'forever'..... its a start into a chain to the next Catamaran I might want later, and I dont feel like rebuilding this one for someone else to have the benefit of at my cost, just because my tastes or requirements have changed. Dont get me wrong, maintenance and refurbishment is part of yacht care..... but not rebuilding a bad vessel unless that is what you want to do. Some people want what they want and like doing that. Not for me.

If my purchase price was over $500K, I might be tempted to travel and look at boats far flung, but you know what? At that price I would be looking at a specific boat for a specific reason and in that event, I would contact a specialist broker and get them to find it for me.

So the day I am free to pull the trigger on a boat...... I will go look what is available and make my choice on the most WELL maintained and upgraded Cat in my final 3 choices I can find, and take my chance.

I will be happy with any of the three........ and look after it.

[JPA Cate]

With all the tax issues, and electrical incompatibility issues, I'd think Corto Maltese would be best off with a European cat of his choice for his first one. I mean, why fly to Australia or the US to buy a problem?

Ann

[weavis]

Originally Posted by Ann T. Cate

With all the tax issues, and electrical incompatibility issues, I'd think Corto Maltese would be best off with a European cat of his choice for his first one. I mean, why fly to Australia or the US to buy a problem?

Ann

I dont know where the OP is based, but Australia is the same European voltage, (220/30) just different sockets which can be changed.

[CortoMaltese]

Hi Weavis and Ann and thanx for your comments.
I am italian but actually living in Rio de Janeiro and starting to plan the sale of my house so i can start to be serious with the choice of the cat.
I am a kind of gipsy so really doesn't matter too much where the cat is IF we are talking of the one i will buy......what i am hoping is to avoid to travel up and down just to see a bad add cat.
Weavis, your point is more or less what i am trying to do, but sometimes as you can imagine, just from what you read in an add is not easy to determine if the huge price differences between a cat or another is justified. Indeed my intention is to buy the best cat, meaning the better maintained cat, my budget would allow me to get.
In another post i am asking about kit cats because i saw some fantastic boats, beautiful designs and with the plus that i can shape them with my real needs; but unfortunatelly looks like going that way the possibility to cross with many hidden costs is very high, and this is something that i want to avoid absolutelly. So this is a point that makes sense also for older or not well maintained vessels: i don't want to run after the best price if then i'll have to spend time fixing and upgrading my boat.
So let's say that my only real doubt is about the budget i really should invest in my first cat considering let's say the eventuality about findind 2 good boats, both well maintained and both with the features i need, but with an important difference in price due to maybe 4/5 years of difference.......in this case i am still not so sure witch would be the better choice.
cheers

[weavis]

Originally Posted by CortoMaltese

Hi Weavis and Ann and thanx for your comments.
I am italian but actually living in Rio de Janeiro and starting to plan the sale of my house so i can start to be serious with the choice of the cat.
I am a kind of gipsy so really doesn't matter too much where the cat is IF we are talking of the one i will buy......what i am hoping is to avoid to travel up and down just to see a bad add cat.
Weavis, your point is more or less what i am trying to do, but sometimes as you can imagine, just from what you read in an add is not easy to determine if the huge price differences between a cat or another is justified. Indeed my intention is to buy the best cat, meaning the better maintained cat, my budget would allow me to get.
In another post i am asking about kit cats because i saw some fantastic boats, beautiful designs and with the plus that i can shape them with my real needs; but unfortunatelly looks like going that way the possibility to cross with many hidden costs is very high, and this is something that i want to avoid absolutelly. So this is a point that makes sense also for older or not well maintained vessels: i don't want to run after the best price if then i'll have to spend time fixing and upgrading my boat.
So let's say that my only real doubt is about the budget i really should invest in my first cat considering let's say the eventuality about findind 2 good boats, both well maintained and both with the features i need, but with an important difference in price due to maybe 4/5 years of difference.......in this case i am still not so sure witch would be the better choice.
cheers

My price range is 100k MAX.
I want it as a liveaboard and semi coastal cruiser, but in the Med from Spain to the Balearics and to North Africa. Not far in real terms for cruising.
Im not interested in resale cost simply because the vessels even in 5 years will be about the same as I will pay now, excluding upgrades.

Age difference really is relative to resale cost. To you, the price is dependent NOW on what you want in a boat.

If its worth it to you for a feature to pay MORE for an older vessel but with a superior proven advantage in the feature you want...... then just pay it.

My choice is easier. But seriously, Im not that choosy regarding cosmetics or stuff. I want comfort, all the boats Im looking have it..within the price constraints of course, I want proven seaworthiness... all have done circumnavigation... I want single handed ease of use...... all comply with that requirement.

One thing I have found, is that my price range and older models, the amount of extras is amazing....... I mean some are better equpped electronically than a vessel 3 times the price and have been overhauled significantly in fixing known issues. Its like a new boat!

If you buy a lagoon your a lagoon owner. If you buy an Admiral, your an Admiral owner...... one might be 5 years older than the other but so what....... you bought it... enjoy it.

Sweat the small stuff and you will never purchase. Its your first Cat, it wont be your last.

[travellerw]

I read and responded to your last post...

I feel I have to be a little bit of the devil here.. If I remember right, it will be just you and your son, correct?

If so, why are you looking at such large boats? I am still in the looking process myself but all my research indicates that boats of that size will be particularly difficult to single hand. Not to mention being WAY more expensive, both up front and in ongoing costs.

I'm pretty sure the 2 of you would be happy (space wise) on a 36 - 38ft boat. Something like a PDQ 36 or a Privilege 39.

Just some food for thought from another noob.

[cwjohm]

I think this indicates that boats are a very personal issue. I would not buy a boat older than 2 years because to me boats age quickly and they look frankly "old". I would not buy a boat less than 43' even single handed as smaller is claustrophobic. However, being surrounded by many boats and owners I completely understand that others have a very different view.

I am not saying the OP fits this category but studies prove that most people make emotional decisions and then try to justify them via logical means. At the end of the day I think it is better to accept that your decisions in regard to boats are driven by emotional responses, and to use logic to eliminate stupid decision making. It is no use buying an older boat or a smaller boat if you feel emotional rejection every time you step on the boat. On the other hand you may really, really like a 60' boat but if you want to single hand it this would be a pretty silly decision that should be eliminated for logical reasons.

At the end of the day the only person you have to satisfy is you and only you can determine how you respond emotionally to any given boat.

As far as sailing experience goes every one of the boats you specify is available for charter.

[CortoMaltese]

@ travellerw: Me my wife and my son for long term liveaboard: that makes size important and we already confirmed that 38/39 is a bit too small; that's why the choice of a +40. I like though the Privilege, but the size.......i would love a 395 a little bit bigger.

@ cwjohm: while i agree with you till a certain point about size, i am not so sure about cats aging quickly. Do you mean design? Features? Boat itself? Because in the market there are many older cats, very well maintained, that have nothing to envy to much newer and roughly used charter boats.
In my opening post i made an example between 2 boats: FP orana and belize. Very similar boats. Often very different prices and very small age differences. This is the case where i would have some indecision: if both are in same conditions, should i buy the newer one and more expensive o the one slightly older and save something that could be handy "just in case"?

[weavis]

Originally Posted by CortoMaltese

@ This is the case where i would have some indecision: if both are in same conditions, should i buy the newer one and more expensive o the one slightly older and save something that could be handy "just in case"?

YOu can answer this yourself.

If you buy the more expensive vessel, will you have enough cash (say 30% of the purchase price) to pay for unexpected expenses?

If you dont, then your purchase price is too high and you need to back down the pricing you have set.

[CortoMaltese]

Originally Posted by weavis

YOu can answer this yourself.

If you buy the more expensive vessel, will you have enough cash (say 30% of the purchase price) to pay for unexpected expenses?

If you dont, then your purchase price is too high and you need to back down the pricing you have set.

As said earlier my intention is to buy a really sound well maintained boat, and of course after a complete survey so i think that 30% of the cat price as a reserve is not really needed. Then consider that in any case even if i use all my 300k budget, indeet i am not using all my funds. But the difference in price between 2 similar cats can be invested in something else.
So what i wonder is how much a higher price justify a slightly newer cat when we are talking about very similar design/conditions/features.