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Old 01-12-2007, 06:45   #46
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Seamanship

Joli,

There is no cure-all for poor seamanship. Relying on autopilots you take risks. Either be attentive or reduce sail. (or both) Rob's unsupported masts are designed to deflect in either high winds or too much sail aloft. The mast will spill some air. That doesn't mean be stupid, same as rounding up. Either the mast spills some air, if it starts to lift a hull, then spills some more air. If you have way too much sail aloft then anyone can get knocked over.

Wings will self align to the wind so you get no more thrust if the boat turns EXCEPT if it changes the amount of apparent wind, ie changing from downwind to upwind.

Howvever the the winged boat will have a solenoid "release" the shifts the wing rudder cam from up to 15 degrees (max performance) down to 2-3 degrees when the apparent wind reaches 30 knots. It stays in that position until manually reset. Based upon our stability predictions wind has to somewhat exceed 35 knots and max wing performabce to lift the windward hull clear of the water.

That's just a backup failsafe. It is not a prevention for being foolish, inattentive, lack of preparedness or just plain poor seamanship.

All the same can happen to monohull, get a knockdown from whatever reason and with the companionway hatch open, then hope you are wearing a lifejacket. I orefer not to fly a hull,..... if some experienced crew on a Gunboat want to try it then go for it. But that all requires attention and not running on the autopilot.

MY boat wll have two pilots, one for each direction of travel, but I won't be running maxed out with it engaged. Hope this clarifies.

JT
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Old 01-12-2007, 07:18   #47
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Thanks for responding JT, that helps clarifies, I never thought of a solenoid for the wing but it makes sense. The unstayed carbon spar also makes sense since it will also self unload just not as much as the wing. I would think the designer is strongly discouraging stayed rigging considering it will not unload. There has to be a way to unload the rig when cruising shorthanded, you cannot actively sail a cruiser 100% of the time.

If the boat comes to the Great Lakes I'll look you up and buy you a beer.

Wishing you a safe voyage.



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Originally Posted by jjtctaylor View Post
Joli,

There is no cure-all for poor seamanship. Relying on autopilots you take risks. Either be attentive or reduce sail. (or both) Rob's unsupported masts are designed to deflect in either high winds or too much sail aloft. The mast will spill some air. That doesn't mean be stupid, same as rounding up. Either the mast spills some air, if it starts to lift a hull, then spills some more air. If you have way too much sail aloft then anyone can get knocked over.

Wings will self align to the wind so you get no more thrust if the boat turns EXCEPT if it changes the amount of apparent wind, ie changing from downwind to upwind.

Howvever the the winged boat will have a solenoid "release" the shifts the wing rudder cam from up to 15 degrees (max performance) down to 2-3 degrees when the apparent wind reaches 30 knots. It stays in that position until manually reset. Based upon our stability predictions wind has to somewhat exceed 35 knots and max wing performabce to lift the windward hull clear of the water.

That's just a backup failsafe. It is not a prevention for being foolish, inattentive, lack of preparedness or just plain poor seamanship.

All the same can happen to monohull, get a knockdown from whatever reason and with the companionway hatch open, then hope you are wearing a lifejacket. I orefer not to fly a hull,..... if some experienced crew on a Gunboat want to try it then go for it. But that all requires attention and not running on the autopilot.

MY boat wll have two pilots, one for each direction of travel, but I won't be running maxed out with it engaged. Hope this clarifies.

JT
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Old 01-12-2007, 10:01   #48
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There has to be a way to unload the rig when cruising shorthanded, you cannot actively sail a cruiser 100% of the time.

How does the average cruising cat rig unload when sailing short handed on autopilot?

Using your above (first) scenario, would the cat not also be overcome?

The top of the main does not unload that much wind does it?
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Old 01-12-2007, 10:35   #49
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How does the average cruising cat rig unload when sailing short handed on autopilot?

Using your above (first) scenario, would the cat not also be overcome?

The top of the main does not unload that much wind does it?
The short answer is: It Doesn't. But the d/l of most cats is much higher then the proa and the sa/d is much lower then the proa. From what TJ has written and what is published in the Harryproa website, they have some very clever engineering to try to get around this but they still caution the boat must be sailed with prudent seamanship. (ie. a more active crew)

As and example: The St Francis 50 has a d/l of around 103 empty, very quick but I can't imagine they will be reefing in 10-12 knots when going upwind. Compare that to the proa with a d/l of 24. Big difference.

JT mentioned another boat, the Gunboat. He referenced that although you could fly a hull it would not be prudent without a very active crew. Personaly I would not want one for family cruising (husband, wife, kids) the power to weight ratio simply demands too much attention. And while the Gunboat 62 is a lovely boat it is in my opinion unsafe for family cruising. I'm sure Peter Johnstone will disagree but he is most likely a much higher caliber sailor then most of us.

OK Rob, your turn, give me hell!
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Old 01-12-2007, 11:30   #50
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I think it would be too easy for a Gunboat 62 to get away from me, you are obviously a better sailor and don't feel that way.

I'll give you another boat that I think is unsafe but people sail them all over. The C&C LF 48 with has an offset companionway and the risk of downflooding makes them unsafe. My opinion.

Fair winds!


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This is a great quote!

(Sorry I had to jump in). What kind of boat did you go cruising on Joli? (cruising the ocean >5000 miles) was this a safer boat than the Gunboat? Just wondering. Maybe this was before you had a family?

I have seen many boats that I would consider less safe out there. They seemed to be just fine. Maybe just flukes...

PS Proas have been crossing oceans longer than MONOs
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Old 01-12-2007, 14:16   #51
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I guess any boat with a companionway (and ballast) is unsafe then. They can all downflood if the boat is knocked down with the companionway open can't they? Any boat with hatches (and ballast) must be unsafe too?

BTW Joli, I can't find where it says on the Proa website that the 50' Harryproa will fly a hull in 15kts true. Could you provide a link please?
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Old 01-12-2007, 15:11   #52
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Any mono with a offset companion way hatch can be downflooded if knocked down on its beam ends. That is not a concern with a centerline companionway. This is the same reason galley sinks in a mono are on centerline.

The note about flying the hull can be found in the Visionarry Cruiser Easy to handle paragraph. Note: 25 it flies a hull, I assumed 10 knots upwind, it probably sails quicker then that upwind but I figured hey, close enough.

So whos right Rob Denney or Ted Warren. I guess time will tell if the proa is allowed to race......

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I guess any boat with a companionway (and ballast) is unsafe then. They can all downflood if the boat is knocked down with the companionway open can't they? Any boat with hatches (and ballast) must be unsafe too?

BTW Joli, I can't find where it says on the Proa website that the 50' Harryproa will fly a hull in 15kts true. Could you provide a link please?
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Old 01-12-2007, 15:19   #53
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You mean this bit?:

"Easily handled: The Easy Rig and a central steering station mean that Jan is be able to sail the boat single handed. There are 2 winches mounted close to the wheel to assist with sheet loads when the jib is not used. These can also double as anchor and halyard winches if required. Because Blind Date is so light, it is tremendously responsive. Blind and sighted sailors are be able to notice immediately the effect of sail trim or course alterations. If it had a conventional, stayed rig, Blind Date would lift a hull when the breeze hits 25 knots. Sensible cruising sailors would reef at 20.knots or less. However, because the rig is unstayed it will bend considerably and at 25 knots the ww hull will still be firmly in the water. This element of safety makes an enormous difference in gusty conditions."

No, hang on, it says the hull will still be firmly in the water in 25 knots..
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Old 01-12-2007, 15:21   #54
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You got it. I think the carbon rig is a good bet for this design. The righting moment is not that high so anything to help depower the sail plan in a puff has to help.

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You mean this bit?:

Easily handled: The Easy Rig and a central steering station mean that Jan is be able to sail the boat single handed. There are 2 winches mounted close to the wheel to assist with sheet loads when the jib is not used. These can also double as anchor and halyard winches if required. Because Blind Date is so light, it is tremendously responsive. Blind and sighted sailors are be able to notice immediately the effect of sail trim or course alterations. If it had a conventional, stayed rig, Blind Date would lift a hull when the breeze hits 25 knots. Sensible cruising sailors would reef at 20.knots or less. However, because the rig is unstayed it will bend considerably and at 25 knots the ww hull will still be firmly in the water. This element of safety makes an enormous difference in gusty conditions.
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Old 01-12-2007, 16:37   #55
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proa sailing

Before we whip ourselves into a frenzy over the pros and cons of harryproas how about looking at the published facts. Most of the stuff published seems to be Unsupported by actual open ocean miles..

Russ browns Jezero is a very different style of proa but has many ocean miles .
Rob has clearly stated in posts that none of his proas after approximately 10 years of development have completed a single testing ocean passage in anything other than light ,gentle conditions.! ( not the sort of stuff an ocean cruiser needs to safely survive to be considered safe)
Even though he has threatened to enter races to prove how blindingly fast they are, to my knowledge he hasn't as yet.

For all the years of testing it seems that some of the few that are sailing have had their rudder systems rebuilt . Is this a case of unfinalised design?.(one of the main stumbling blocks of "proas for da people ".) .

Also there seems to be a number of the very few owners ,having boats for sale before or soon after completion. Are these boats returning a fair price.

I'm waiting for some published owner testing and ocean passages before I make a decision iether way.
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Old 01-12-2007, 19:19   #56
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Also there seems to be a number of the very few owners ,having boats for sale before or soon after completion. Are these boats returning a fair price.
Any links to all these boats for sale? I know "Rare bird" is for sale, but that is because her owner died shortly after she was launched.
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Old 02-12-2007, 10:47   #57
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Crusingcat, of course we close and dog side hatches prior to sailing, that is just common sense. Don't you prep you boat prior to sailing?

Here are the designers words:
"Harry is very stable, theoretically not flying a hull in cruising mode until the apparent breeze reaches 25 knots." It is found in the speed paragraph, harryproa/articles/ Meet Harry

Read some of the conversation between Rob and Ted Warren ( Warren Multihull Designs )regarding the safety of proa for distance cruising and then decide.

Anyway, I think JT with a wing sail and the ability to de-couple the power from the boat is on the right track to make a proa into a cruiser. Cruisers must be able to let a boat run itself, they simply cannot actively sail it 100% of the time.

Fair winds

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So you wouldn't sail in a mono with an offset companionway, or an offset sink? What about deck hatches? I mean you could leave one of them open......then there's through-hulls......they could sink the boat too..... Kind of limits your opportunities doesn't it?

I still can't find the bit where it says the proa will fly a hull in 15 knots though......."firmly in the water" at 25 knots is quite different I would think. The ww hull certainly looks pretty firmly planted in the video, in 15 knots.
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Old 03-12-2007, 03:52   #58
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Rogert, I thought about starting a thread called "mono v multi rant" after reading your post, the biker bar thing is funny as!- after thinking for 10 extra seconds I decided against the M v M rant thread, it all got solved years ago & it's like just soooo... last millenium. My IT savvy brother tells me theres such a thing as a troll or trawl? methinks best to leave them under the bridge(deck) & sail away. All the best from Jeff who loves monos & multis.
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Old 03-12-2007, 07:19   #59
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Actually I post in many areas. If I see something interesting I'll post there, even if it means stepping into the holy grail of the multihull. Some of you are very predictable and humorous.
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Old 03-12-2007, 10:39   #60
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Read some of the conversation between Rob and Ted Warren ( Warren Multihull Designs )regarding the safety of proa for distance cruising and then decide.
Where are these conversations? Link?
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