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geoleo · 13-04-2012, 13:52

Thanks 'coach' (another "coach" )

geoleo · 13-04-2012, 13:54

watch out for 'coach Bash' his lil pinky is elevated

Barra · 15-04-2012, 22:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bash

no need to give up their jobs... just find a hobby other than sailing.

Some fellows really ought to stick to lawn bowling.

What im actually getting at is if those so called professionals skilled in that particular model cant get close to the marketing polars then they are crap polars.... rather than crap sailors.

fhcraig · 19-04-2012, 15:38

Granted I also cast a healthy skeptical eye on anything that feels like mfg marketing "bull", but I can't argue too much with the Leopard 40 polars! We are still new to our L39 (just picked up last year), but we had a blast sailing this past week-end in 10-15's that turned into 15-20's. At 60-90 apparent we were all over 7-8kts regularly with really sloppy sail trim (most of the time). I saw 8-8.5kts and even 9kts several times. This was on the L39 which carries less quite a bit less LWL than the L40 the polars were based on.

I won't vouch for some of the more "hard core" extreme numbers at the limits on the polars - we played it safe and threw a single reef in the main at 15 and started shortening the jib at 20. And we are definitely NOT a pro crew!

kaimusailing · 19-04-2012, 16:00

I will be doing this for my boat this summer. On a catamaran it is essential to know what your best true wind angle is for best VMG upwind. Also sea state is a very important parameter.

I was sailing on a Woods in light airs and its close hauled performance was very good. A couple of power boat wakes stopped it almost dead in its tracks. Obviously sailing in a chop will require pointing off a bit. We all know this, but a little research will give a number, a pointing angle, and with some more work, sail draft, and if it gets really bad, engine starting routine.

barnakiel · 19-04-2012, 16:00

What I do not like about them (mfg polars) is that most manufacturers seem to think their boats will sail without water, fuel, davits, dinghies, watermakers, books, charts, rode and anchors ...

Then again I find so few owners understand (let alone use) polars that, statistically, it does not really matter.

b.

**Ex-Calif** · 19-04-2012, 16:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Barra

What im actually getting at is if those so called professionals skilled in that particular model cant get close to the marketing polars then they are crap polars.... rather than crap sailors.

To be fair you haven't described the conditions of the day or the boat and either the circumstances of the test. Was it published?

I presume you were on board and did not see these experts reach a polar number?

Please elaborate...

I can see a "new" model boats polars could be off. But a year into production there will be enough people calling bs to get them modified.

In regards to how a boat is loaded, it makes total sense to do the polars "as delivered" how else could you do it...

Barra · 19-04-2012, 16:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ex-Calif

To be fair you haven't described the conditions of the day or the boat and either the circumstances of the test. Was it published?

I presume you were on board and did not see these experts reach a polar number?

Please elaborate...

I can see a "new" model boats polars could be off. But a year into production there will be enough people calling bs to get them modified.

In regards to how a boat is loaded, it makes total sense to do the polars "as delivered" how else could you do it...

Yes i posted it under this thread i started -

http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...ght-72170.html

As others have said most people dont really look at polars or use them so disagree they would be called on BS. The rep on board admitted they were "ideal conditions" polars ie no fuel or water and no waves in 20 knots. not exactly real world eh.

I find it a little odd how people want to jump to the defence of marketing material. If you own a leopard i understand that you want to defend it but if not then why assume a real world comparison must be somehow more misleading than the clearly biased marketing?

Therapy · 19-04-2012, 16:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by kaimusailing

. We all know this, but a little research will give a number, a pointing angle, and with some more work, sail draft, and if it gets really bad, engine starting routine.

Pretty funny, that.

Bash · 19-04-2012, 16:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by barnakiel

What I do not like about them (mfg polars) is that most manufacturers seem to think their boats will sail without water, fuel, davits, dinghies, watermakers, books, charts, rode and anchors ...

This is true. By their very nature, the polars assume a light boat, a clean bottom, crisp sails and an expert crew. They wouldn't be of much use to racers any other way. If you've got barnacles, a fixed prop, three miles of anchor chain, the genoa you circumnavigated with, and your mother-in-law at the helm, the polars might be unattainable.

Whenever I sail with an expert helmsperson who knows his/her boat well, it seems that the helm can hit the polars instinctively without ever needing to consult the actual chart. The best of them can mentally adjust the polars to accommodate for less-than-ideal conditions. That's part of racing too: if you are at your best speed for a given point of sail at a given wind speed and you're not up to your polars, you need to be able to figure out why that is happening. In the racing world, those who can't accomplish this are called "losers."

Blaming the polars is a strategy typical of losers.

Barra · 19-04-2012, 17:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bash

This is true. By their very nature, the polars assume a light boat, a clean bottom, crisp sails and an expert crew. They wouldn't be of much use to racers any other way. If you've got barnacles, a fixed prop, three miles of anchor chain, the genoa you circumnavigated with, and your mother-in-law at the helm, the polars might be unattainable.

MIGHT be unattainable bash Might BE????

Bash · 19-04-2012, 17:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Barra

MIGHT be unattainable bash Might BE????

You haven't met my mother in law.

**Ex-Calif** · 19-04-2012, 18:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Barra

Yes i posted it under this thread i started -

http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...ght-72170.html

As others have said most people dont really look at polars or use them so disagree they would be called on BS. The rep on board admitted they were "ideal conditions" polars ie no fuel or water and no waves in 20 knots. not exactly real world eh.

I find it a little odd how people want to jump to the defence of marketing material. If you own a leopard i understand that you want to defend it but if not then why assume a real world comparison must be somehow more misleading than the clearly biased marketing?

As a racer for the last 5 years I find polars useful. To me one must have a baseline.

If a boat is not hitting polars it could be bad sailing or bad rig, excessive loading and in remote cases a bad polar. I found a rig issue in my boat when hitting speed on one tack vs. another.

Without a beseline you dont know where to start looking or even if you should look. If you can explain performance shortfall based on boat load or some other factor than the polar serves its purpose.

There is no other way to set a baseline than with an empty boat. This is the only way one can compare between two boats of the same type as equipment loading will be different.

The other use of a polar is the shape which indicates where you might look for best vmg.

I keep a blank polar plot on board. When I am racing and have time I mark my boat speed and wind speeds. Sort of my own polar. The information is useful to me to see if the boat is changing. Boat load is pretty consistent and the biggest variation is bottom cleanlines (go figure...)

You seem to hate polars and I have said what I think so vive la differance...

My only advice is that when you are getting smoked by a boat of the same type you may want to go back to basics for troubleshooting and basics includes performance plots.

And final couple of questions - Are polars given in true or apparent wind speeds and angles? Did the rep know and did he know the difference? Were you reading true or apparent on the wind guages? I would expect a rep to know, especially if he is selling boats but it would not surprise me in the least that the "marketing & sales" guys are not familiar.