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Old 26-08-2016, 02:04   #16
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Re: Outremer 49

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Originally Posted by tuskie View Post
Even the Schionning G- force 1500c has a 2.6 ton payload, and it's a bit more towards the racy end of the catamaran spectrum.

As you say, I wonder what equipment, fittings, batteries, fluids, are included in the Outremer "lightship" specs ?
It sounds as if you're saying that 2.6t is enough in the Schionning, but not the Outremer?

Plus, in doing the payload math on a slightly smaller lead mine (mono), including; all chain ground tackle, with a full backup set (100m of chain for each). Along with 100gal+ of water, plenty of fuel, several months of stores, sails & rigging + spares for same, etc. The numbers came out at around 2t. And that was without much concern for watching weight. So how much payload is "enough"?

I'm also curious as to what defines a "cruiser". As I've known cruisers who limited themselves to only a handfull of books onboard for any given passage. Due to the weight limits of small boats. And 2.6t is more than some of them weighed, total. So weight & scale seem to be relative really.
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Old 26-08-2016, 02:56   #17
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Re: Outremer 49

Outremers of all sizes are amongst the most cruised on a percentage basis, cats in the world. I recall the factory indicating that 75% of all outremers launched have crossed an ocean and 40% have or are in the process of, circumnavigating. Sounds like a cruising boat to me.
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Old 26-08-2016, 04:59   #18
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Re: Outremer 49

Most boats leave the builder heavier that the designed light displacement. 2500 kg is plenty of payload in a performance cat assuming you want a performance cat, no problems there. My 34' cat has only about 1500 kg of payload and we generally cruise with a family of 4 at around 1000kg so not fully loaded. Typically exceed 10 knots easily in any winds over 16 knots when loaded
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Old 27-08-2016, 00:15   #19
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Re: Outremer 49

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Originally Posted by UNCIVILIZED View Post
It sounds as if you're saying that 2.6t is enough in the Schionning, but not the Outremer?

Plus, in doing the payload math on a slightly smaller lead mine (mono), including; all chain ground tackle, with a full backup set (100m of chain for each). Along with 100gal+ of water, plenty of fuel, several months of stores, sails & rigging + spares for same, etc. The numbers came out at around 2t. And that was without much concern for watching weight. So how much payload is "enough"?

I'm also curious as to what defines a "cruiser". As I've known cruisers who limited themselves to only a handfull of books onboard for any given passage. Due to the weight limits of small boats. And 2.6t is more than some of them weighed, total. So weight & scale seem to be relative really.
If you've "known cruisers", then you should know what defines a cruiser. How about: "Someone who lives on a boat for long periods of time and goes from place to place"?

My point is simply that the Outremer 49 has the same payload as a similar size Schionning G force. These are hugely expensive, custom made, ultra lightweight performance machines. Just walking on the deck of a G force will indicate its design brief. Sure it could be cruised, but it would be a bit like grocery shopping in a Ferrari.

Finding the real payload of a cruising catamaran is not easy; maximum displacement is often not specified on manufacturer's websites and neither is it clear exactly what is included in "light ship " displacement.

Let's just observe that most designers of 50 foot cruising catamarans decide to include more payload than Outremer, and leave it at that.

I have no desire to argue about what should be enough payload for cruising. That is a very personal choice. If folks are happy to keep their boats lightweight, great. If they are happy to live on over laden boats, far be it for me to shatter their bliss.( BTW, Factor, my references to living on dehydrated food, etc. came from your Post #30 "New 47?...")

As an observation however, I'm currently at Australia's largest gathering of cruising yachties. Whilst the rich racers are spending big, bragging and breaking boats at Hamilton Island, Queensland, Australia, there's another gathering not too far away here at 20° 4.56'S 148° 26.29'E . It's the SICYC annual rendezvous. After a bit of asking and observing, I'll bet "London to a brick" that there isn't a boat over 45 foot that is carrying 2.6 tonnes or less of load over "lightship" displacement. No Outremers though.
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Old 27-08-2016, 03:11   #20
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Re: Outremer 49

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Originally Posted by tuskie View Post
As an observation however, I'm currently at Australia's largest gathering of cruising yachties. Whilst the rich racers are spending big, bragging and breaking boats at Hamilton Island, Queensland, Australia, there's another gathering not too far away here at 20° 4.56'S 148° 26.29'E . It's the SICYC annual rendezvous. After a bit of asking and observing, I'll bet "London to a brick" that there isn't a boat over 45 foot that is carrying 2.6 tonnes or less of load over "lightship" displacement. No Outremers though.
I suppose your are surrounded by cats mostly dedicated at the charter market. Cats that can carry 12 people and their stuff for one week. It's a bit weird to criticize the Outremer line for cruising while you are cruising a charter boat, isn't it ?

If money was no concern I you buy a O5X and laugh at (or ignore) people telling me that their L560 has three times the payload.

It's nice to have so many different style of catamaran on the market these days. ANyone should find his. Some of us are even cruising a L440 ;-)

You were looking for examples, there is a freydis 49 next to me at anchor (impressive !) obvioulsy equiped for long time cruising, I believe the payload is lower than equivalent outremer but still this boat is one of the famous for circumnavigating.
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Old 27-08-2016, 13:22   #21
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Re: Outremer 49

Besides payload, other concerns with the outremer 49? We are good on payload.

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Old 27-08-2016, 22:13   #22
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Re: Outremer 49

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Originally Posted by Sail power sail View Post
Besides payload, other concerns with the outremer 49? We are good on payload.

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I think the only other concern would be the increased numbers of comments from envious forum cruisers now that you are the proud owner of an Outremer.
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Old 27-08-2016, 22:38   #23
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Re: Outremer 49

The biggest concern I have with the O49 was the limited space in the engine bays. Very difficult to maintain the engines and the other gear in there.

I asked Outremer about this and they agreed it was problematic.

All good on the O51 of course with the longer transoms.

Based on feedback also the O51 is a significantly better performer. Apparently that transom extension does make a reasonable difference.
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Old 28-08-2016, 02:59   #24
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Re: Outremer 49

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Originally Posted by tuskie View Post
My point is simply that the Outremer 49 has the same payload as a similar size Schionning G force. These are hugely expensive, custom made, ultra lightweight performance machines. Just walking on the deck of a G force will indicate its design brief. Sure it could be cruised, but it would be a bit like grocery shopping in a Ferrari.
You could have your Schionning for less money than the Outremer, done at a yard. A LOT cheaper if you built it yourself.

Also, while they're certainly fast boats I think they'd be more inline with grocery shopping in an AMG C63. They have space and the payload can be used for what you want. They definitely are a practical cruising option - it's what they're designed for (performance cruiser).
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Old 28-08-2016, 03:11   #25
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Re: Outremer 49

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You could have your Schionning for less money than the Outremer, done at a yard. A LOT cheaper if you built it yourself.
Not true. Only two yards I would trust in Qld and I have priced 50ft Shionnings in both. Even at current exchange rates you cannot get these boats built less than the O51. I have also looked at second hand Schionnings from other yards and asked owners build prices - same story.

Given I have not the expertise, as very, very few people do, home build is not an option.
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Old 28-08-2016, 04:36   #26
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Re: Outremer 49

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Originally Posted by cwjohm View Post
Not true. Only two yards I would trust in Qld and I have priced 50ft Shionnings in both. Even at current exchange rates you cannot get these boats built less than the O51. I have also looked at second hand Schionnings from other yards and asked owners build prices - same story.

Given I have not the expertise, as very, very few people do, home build is not an option.
I'm afraid it is true. You've limited your options to two yards, others wouldn't, including the designers.

Do you know what a landed in Aus O51 is worth? An 045 is pretty much a 7 figure boat, for example. Are we comparing apples with apples here?

In any case, I know you can get it done. Maybe not to your risk profile/liking, however. And that's ok; no problem with that.
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Old 28-08-2016, 07:44   #27
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Re: Outremer 49

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Originally Posted by Sail power sail View Post
Yea payload is a concern

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I've sailed O 51 extensively and posted here a great deal of details about her, you can search and find if you like. I haven't sailed O 49 but the owner of O51 did and he's saying that the volumes inside and the layout is identical to O51. The difference is the prolonged transom which adds 2 inch and roughly 600 kg of extra payload.
If you can get a reasonably priced O 49 , you can think of prolonging the transom yrself. In France there are yards to do it. If you cannot find anybody to do that or you think the prices are too high, we'll do it for you here..
Beside the extra buoyancy you get, this 2 inches thoritically should also improve the handling of the boat. (hull beam to hull length ratio is improved..)

Cheers

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Old 28-08-2016, 10:47   #28
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Re: Outremer 49

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Do you know what a landed in Aus O51 is worth? An 045 is pretty much a 7 figure boat, for example. Are we comparing apples with apples here?
Went to France earlier this year and visited the factory. I know exactly what an O51 picked up in Grande Motte and landed in Aus is worth. I have researched all recent second hand Outremer on the market.

I have looked at every new and recent second hand Schionning in recent times (last couple of years). I have priced actual plans for GForce and Waterline with reputable yards TO A FINISHED CRUSING STANDARD.

The reality is that in this regard invariably it is not an apples to apples comparison as you can minimally outfit a Schionning and sail/race it but not so an Outremer as they are built to a minimal quality, but when you compare both completed to reasonable cruising standard then meaningful comparisons can be made.

The hard reality is that in regard to completed cost AND resale value for a fast cruising boat Outremer is the clear winner as can be seen by recent racing multihull results. However, if you want a racing boat Schionning gives better options.
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Old 28-08-2016, 10:50   #29
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Re: Outremer 49

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The hard reality is that in regard to completed cost AND resale value for a fast cruising boat Outremer is the clear winner as can be seen by recent racing multihull results. However, if you want a racing boat Schionning gives better options.
That should read

The hard reality is that in regard to completed cost AND resale value for a fast cruising boat Outremer is the clear winner, but Schionning gives more options as a racing boat, as can be seen by recent racing multihull results. So, if you want a racing boat Schionning gives better options.
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Old 28-08-2016, 10:53   #30
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Re: Outremer 49

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The difference is the prolonged transom which adds 2 inch and roughly 600 kg of extra payload.
Hi Yeloya

All good but we know a Turkish inch is a French foot.

Cheers mate.
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