Outremer 45, do they have a helm enclosure?

[CookiesnTequila]

Originally Posted by Factor

My goodness, Loch Crowther would be turning in his grave.

Probably!! But 8 - 10kn is more than enough for us, and we're comfortable!! [emoji6]

[CookiesnTequila]

Originally Posted by yeloya

The helm position of Catana's have been debated several times on the forum. The only negative I see is the visibility.., the view on the opposite side is impaired and this might be a problem when you sail in a crowded waters.
As CookiesnTequila said, one doesn't need to be on the helm all the time, almost never on long passages. If the wind is too strong, you simply reef more and slow down the boat still remaining on autopilote.
By the way, reefing singlehanded is extremely easy on Catana's, all the lines are coming to the huge winch in the cockpit. In most of the other cats that I've sailed , you need to visit the mast to reef and I find this much more dangereous than aft helms.
Yes, Catana 50's for some reason are heavier. My 47 is carbon is around 11-12 tons empty.
Nevertheless, the 50 also will be faster than same size FP or Lagoons thanks to slimmer hulls.

Cheers

Yeloya

My understanding is the later hull numbers are lighter. We are #15. But not being racers, and not having had the experience of cruising at 12+ knots, we are absolutely fine, and Cheshire cat happy with very comfortable 8-10 knots all day long!

And yes - reefing in all conditions is dead simple and safe from the cockpit.

You are also right about the visability, but, in all but the worst conditions, it's very simple and easy to step up onto the helm seat while holding the wheel, which then gives you full 360 visibility. But it really isn't as much of a problem as it might sound.

[CookiesnTequila]

Originally Posted by Thalas

Here is an actual photo from the obstructed view from the helm of a Catana 53 that I'm talking about. Imagine your autopilot isn't working and you're on watch day or night... you better hope trouble is coming from windward. (yes I'm aware the helm is 2 feet to the right in this photo, but the point still stands solidly)

The second photo is of a Catana 47 dinghy cinched all the way up. Still looks like it would drag like mad in anything but favorable conditions.

I searched and have yet to find clears or any kind of enclosure or weather protection at the helms.

Those are both not fair pics. The one from the helm in looking down at the cockpit!! Here are three I just took of our visability from both hulls. Camera was at eye level (obviosly the side out is full visability)The third one was my normal close-quarters step onto tje helm seat. The boom is much lower in that pic because no sails up and topping lift relaxed. Normally there is much better visability under the boom.

Remember, it takes less than two seconds to go from one station to the other. And I would argue that it is much safer having a helm on each side.

And those davits were not tightened! I just took this pic also. Our dinghy doesn't move at all!!

But obviously, everyone defends their own decision, and beliefs. All I say and ask, is don't knock others unless you've tried them.

Catana and Outremer would not still be selling multi million € yachts (lots of which go to second and third time owners) if they weren't safe!!

Different strokes!!

[LeeV]

Originally Posted by Thalas

Don’t get me wrong... I don’t think there is one “right” boat and if a Catana makes them happy, that’s great, but is significant lack of visibility (which is a huge and issue to my mind) really the only negative for you? What about exposure to the elements? Would you really rather be sitting on the sugar scoops in awful weather? What about getting pooped in a storm? In both these cases, you think an aft helm is better than a raised bulkhead helm. Don’t you agree that a full Bimini and clears for bad weather are more easily implemented when higher and in close to the cockpit?
--------

I've sailed aboard (and helmed) the Pride of Baltimore II in the North Sea with no weather protection at all and still couldn't see down both sides day or night. I've sailed on a 36 Catalina with full dodger/bimini/connector in a rain storm late afternoon into the evening, and I've gotta tell ya - I COULDN"T SEE A @#$% THING! :-) No, the "clears" were not aged, yellowed or dull; I just couldn't see for the rain, so yes, I stopped the boat and we dropped the hook. On my Condor 40, F31 and Corsair 36 trimarans, the visibility was great.....on most days.

But when it rained, or got dark, visibility became something I had to deal with like other systems on the boats. I was constantly moving from side to side, looking for lights, markers, freighters, harbors...... It's work! There is no perfect solution and we adapt to all helm configurations, and while the Admiral and I tend to "prefer" the raised helm station for visibility, I've had the pleasure of sailing an outside twin helm Catana. If I wasn't older now heading to retirement and don't want to mess with dagger boards, I'd be looking for a used 42-44. At this stage in our lives, we're slowing down a bit, avoiding suspicious weather patterns because we can, and so 90%+ of our time on the water will not be in really ugly weather.

Each system demands adaptation and compromise.

Respectfully, my $.02 worth.

[CookiesnTequila]

Originally Posted by LeeV

I've sailed aboard (and helmed) the Pride of Baltimore II in the North Sea with no weather protection at all and still couldn't see down both sides day or night. I've sailed on a 36 Catalina with full dodger/bimini/connector in a rain storm late afternoon into the evening, and I've gotta tell ya - I COULDN"T SEE A @#$% THING! :-) No, the "clears" were not aged, yellowed or dull; I just couldn't see for the rain, so yes, I stopped the boat and we dropped the hook. On my Condor 40, F31 and Corsair 36 trimarans, the visibility was great.....on most days.

But when it rained, or got dark, visibility became something I had to deal with like other systems on the boats. I was constantly moving from side to side, looking for lights, markers, freighters, harbors...... It's work! There is no perfect solution and we adapt to all helm configurations, and while the Admiral and I tend to "prefer" the raised helm station for visibility, I've had the pleasure of sailing an outside twin helm Catana. If I wasn't older now heading to retirement and don't want to mess with dagger boards, I'd be looking for a used 42-44. At this stage in our lives, we're slowing down a bit, avoiding suspicious weather patterns because we can, and so 90%+ of our time on the water will not be in really ugly weather.

Each system demands adaptation and compromise.

Respectfully, my $.02 worth.

Very well put, and awesome!! Real sailing [emoji4]

Just one comment - you dont need to use the daggerboards if going off the wind. And lowering is as easy as letting a sheet out (and lets us point to about 35 apparent), and raising them is sheeting in, using the electric winch.

The 431 Catanas are wonderful livaboard boats!!


Further to Thalas' comments: Please read my previous posts. We do not have a significant lack of visability!!! In fact I have 360 degree visibility, from the forward-looking inside nav station where I can and do sail from all the time. Is my visability obstructed when at the outside helms, yes, but not dangerously so. I can see 360 completely unobstructed with a less than 2-second pause, or instantly by stepping onto the cockpit seat. Nothing happens that fast!!!

As for exposure to elements! If you read my earlier posts, you would see that I can (and do) sail for days without getting out in the elements at all. Whenever the "elements" get nasty, I sail completery covered and sprey protected - inside!! When sailing any sort of distance, think of the aft helm stations as completely optional! They are positioned near the sea (like every racing/performance yacht), with clear visibility on the weather and lee sides for sail trimming, and to steer for when I want to experience the exhilaration of real sailing, which I do almost 100% of the time in fair weather.

I have always compared the type of cars people drive with the boats they own. Putting aside the quality issue and focusing purely on style and performance, a raised cockpit catamaran, especially one with no centerboards, is like a mini-van - very convenient, comfortable and safe (to a degree). The Catanas and Outremers fall into the sports car range, think Porsche or Jaguar. A little less comfort for a lot more performance and safety. Performance in a yacht is it's greatest safety asset.

Untill you experience one, you probably won't understand. All I suggest is leave yourself an open mind and don't throw the baby out with the bathwater!! [emoji6]

[44'cruisingcat]

Originally Posted by CookiesnTequila

Those are both not fair pics. The one from the helm in looking down at the cockpit!! Here are three I just took of our visability from both hulls. Camera was at eye level (obviosly the side out is full visability)The third one was my normal close-quarters step onto tje helm seat. The boom is much lower in that pic because no sails up and topping lift relaxed. Normally there is much better visability under the boom.

Remember, it takes less than two seconds to go from one station to the other. And I would argue that it is much safer having a helm on each side.

And those davits were not tightened! I just took this pic also. Our dinghy doesn't move at all!!

But obviously, everyone defends their own decision, and beliefs. All I say and ask, is don't knock others unless you've tried them.

Catana and Outremer would not still be selling multi million € yachts (lots of which go to second and third time owners) if they weren't safe!!

Different strokes!!



Attachment 181399Attachment 181400Attachment 181401

You're having the same CF experience I had years ago. And sometimes still do.

It's hard to believe that someone with absolutely no real world experience in a particular area will tell you, who have, what it's like, and why, contrary to your real life experience, it won't work.

And this may be based on a few photos or quite often nothing at all.

[Thalas]

Originally Posted by 44'cruisingcat

You're having the same CF experience I had years ago. And sometimes still do.

It's hard to believe that someone with absolutely no real world experience in a particular area will tell you, who have, what it's like, and why, contrary to your real life experience, it won't work.

And this may be based on a few photos or quite often nothing at all.

That’s an unfortunate and unfair criticism. I don’t speak in absolutes and continually said that if the boat makes her happy, that’s all that matters. I also never said it wouldn’t work. Everything in sailing is degrees of comfort and safety. I have repeated that I don’t see it as the safest option. I’ve never said it was inherently unsafe or unseaworthy.

You have no idea what my real world experience is. While I acknowledged that my photo was 2 feet to the left of the helm position, her photo is easily 2 feet in front of the helm position to give a more favorable expectation of visibility than in real world sail conditions. Even from her favorable photo, I feel the lack of visibility is not something I would be comfortable with.

I’ve sailed quite a few catamarans and while I have never sailed a Catana, I have stood at the helm. I LOVED so much about the boat and that’s why the unfortunate helm position stood out to me. If they made a raised helm version, it would be on my shortlist.

I pride myself On contributing information that is accurate and commenting in ways that encourages discussion and debate so that we all can learn from each other. Read through my post history and show me a single instance where that is not 100% true. Putting words in my mouth (e.g. “it wouldn’t work” and then shooting that strawman argument seems disingenuous and doesn’t contribute to the conversation. I’m happy to debate any point that I’ve actually raised including the very real lack of visibility on this boat from the leeward side.

[smj]

The larger Catana’s that I’ve been on had impaired visibility from the helm. This can easily be overcome by walking from one helm to the other. You get a great sense of sailing from the Catana helms where in my opinion the raised bulkhead helms give the feeling of driving bus.

[admiralslater]

Our Outremer 45 by Danson has one helm off set to port , when standing I can see all 4 corners . Technically it is an open postion but for the most part I have the protection of the low coach Bimini and a skinny little wind shield . It does not have a helm seat it has a horizontal bar to lean your bum against. Mr Danson obviously expected the helmsman to move around and the boat to be on autohelm alot .
On our little sport cat a home built Pdq27 my helm seat was the edge of a 3/4 piece of plywood with my butt half in and half out of the boat . Uncomfortable as sh.t but good view of the sails . I spent a lot of time racing c+c 34s and as with most monhulls when going up wind you could see nothing but the slot from the helm

[44'cruisingcat]

Originally Posted by smj

The larger Catana’s that I’ve been on had impaired visibility from the helm. This can easily be overcome by walking from one helm to the other. You get a great sense of sailing from the Catana helms where in my opinion the raised bulkhead helms give the feeling of driving bus.

Under sail, almost any boat has impaired visibility from the helm.

A lot of monos when sailing to windward have a huge blind spot. And in some cases the only way to see round the headsail is to go forward to the bow.

[smj]

Originally Posted by 44'cruisingcat

Under sail, almost any boat has impaired visibility from the helm.



A lot of monos when sailing to windward have a huge blind spot. And in some cases the only way to see round the headsail is to go forward to the bow.

Sitting at the dock the Catana’s visibility was more impaired than any catamaran we have owned. What this means to me is maneuvering in a congested area won’t be at all relaxing.

[Thalas]

Originally Posted by 44'cruisingcat

Under sail, almost any boat has impaired visibility from the helm.

A lot of monos when sailing to windward have a huge blind spot. And in some cases the only way to see round the headsail is to go forward to the bow.

I got my initial ASA certs on a Beneteau 50. Obviously the salon roof deck on monos are MUCH lower and not really a forward obstruction, but I also was able to lean down from the helm and see the leeward horizon under the Genoa. I haven’t sailed as many monos, but assumed that was the case most of the time.

[CookiesnTequila]

Originally Posted by Thalas

That’s an unfortunate and unfair criticism. I don’t speak in absolutes and continually said that if the boat makes her happy, that’s all that matters. I also never said it wouldn’t work. Everything in sailing is degrees of comfort and safety. I have repeated that I don’t see it as the safest option. I’ve never said it was inherently unsafe or unseaworthy.

You have no idea what my real world experience is. While I acknowledged that my photo was 2 feet to the left of the helm position, her photo is easily 2 feet in front of the helm position to give a more favorable expectation of visibility than in real world sail conditions. Even from her favorable photo, I feel the lack of visibility is not something I would be comfortable with.

I’ve sailed quite a few catamarans and while I have never sailed a Catana, I have stood at the helm. I LOVED so much about the boat and that’s why the unfortunate helm position stood out to me. If they made a raised helm version, it would be on my shortlist.

I pride myself On contributing information that is accurate and commenting in ways that encourages discussion and debate so that we all can learn from each other. Read through my post history and show me a single instance where that is not 100% true. Putting words in my mouth (e.g. “it wouldn’t work” and then shooting that strawman argument seems disingenuous and doesn’t contribute to the conversation. I’m happy to debate any point that I’ve actually raised including the very real lack of visibility on this boat from the leeward side.

I took those photos from standing at the helm, not forward of it.

There are only a few boats in the world that were purposely designed and built for round the world cruising by a short-handed crew. The Catsna 50 is one of them.

You not being cofortable with something you have admittedly not experienced is your perogatve, and your loss.

[CookiesnTequila]

Originally Posted by smj

Sitting at the dock the Catana’s visibility was more impaired than any catamaran we have owned. What this means to me is maneuvering in a congested area won’t be at all relaxing.

Do yourself a favour, and look at it again a little more objectively, because you are wrong!

[smj]

Originally Posted by CookiesnTequila

Do yourself a favour, and look at it again a little more objectively, because you are wrong!

I don’t understand. I’m not wrong as this is my opinion after looking at the Catana. I’m 6’4” tall and the visibility towards the opposite bow quarter was completely obstructed. I also stated with the twin helms you would be able to jockey between sides, not a perfect solution but very doable.
You are the same person that said they stand on their helms seat to gain visibility?