Oceanvolt Hybrid Motor

[Stumble]

Originally Posted by ranchero76

So, you guys don't care if this COMPLETE setup gives other benefits (besides SOME savings by hybrid drive)? Nobody even seem to notice these.

Can you at least try to imagine that there are people who don't mind having some comfort even while anchored near distant island? Like having AC any time they want, dehumidifiers to help save equipment from moisture, daily hot shower for a few people, all of this and more - without turning generator on? Not sure if your fuel bill will be low (as you say) if you start using all of these things on unlimited basis with your generator on. That's simply like having generator running all day long.

And cooking without propane too. That's like having home comfort in the middle of ocean. Hybrid drive - just little bonus - short silent motoring around that island...
It really depends which life style you're looking for. Some sailing on 26ft monohull and still happy, some think their 200' yacht a little small for them. I'm somewhere in between - no way I would sail in 26ft boat (well, maybe, if I was 20 years younger). I'd like to buy as much comfort as I can. Even if I will need to service it myself later

No not really. If you want to install a massive solar array and a big battery bank go for it. Heck I would love all this stuff.

But start messing with propulsion and all the other benefits have to take second fiddle to propulsion. Because I can always turn on a generator or go without AC, but when I need propulsion I need a system that can drive the boat into a 5kn current for hours at a time. Electric propulsion based around a solar array simply can't.

Because all the other stuff is comfort, but a propulsion system that you can rely on is a safety issue.

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by SDChristian

I repeat, "7 knots". As posited by my hypothetical question, at 7 knots, how many gph answers the question. No need to complicate things.

In your hypothetical question, it will burn slightly more fuel with a hybrid and dead batteries. (assuming both boats are set up to run at peak efficiency at 7kts). Properly set up, it will come close but at significant increased up front costs and it will be overkill for house loads.

Where the proponents come up with supposed improvements in propulsion efficiency is they cut the HP of the hybrid system drastically and accept maybe a 4kt cruise speed and then compare that to the conventionally powered boat doing 7kts ignoring the fact that if 4kts was all you ever need, you could simply use smaller conventional diesels and get better improvements in efficiency.

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by ranchero76

1. Last time I've checked - 50-55' were in "45+" category. Not sure if this has been changed lately.
So is a 1000' boat but it's not what people think of when you say 45'+ Usually it means 2-3' larger but I update my response now that you've clarified your response.

2. 15kW of solar costs $15k approx (50 panels 320W each) That's 50 x 1m x 1.65m = 83m2 (approx 900 sq.ft.) And I'm developing pivoting and retractable array, so all this won't take extra space on boat. And they placed horizontally, so there's no more drag than big bimini has
A 50'x25' boat has a total of 1250sft of deck space. Solar panels lose a tremendous amount of output with even a small shadow partially covering them. Your proposal would cover upwards of 72% of the deck space. How will you keep them clear of the shadows from the rig? Even the biggest bimini would be maybe 1/3 that size and even horizontally mounted create tremendous windage. $15k for the solar panels fits in with the $50k overall increase in cost. Probably triple that with a marinized pivoting and retractable system....oops, your right my $50k assumption got blown out of the water before we even got to electric motors or batteries.

3. If you're stating that 1 gallon per hour is enough to motor at hull speed, that means not much power needed - there's simply no way you can develop more than 10-15kW of power with that amount of fuel used, no matter what. Even VW Jetta with TDI engine (way more sophisticated in all aspects than old school boat engines) with all emission crap removed and engine tuned for economy, uses more fuel on highway, at low speed (say 80 km/h), which requires minimum power.
So at 10kW there are few hours of electric motoring even if just battery bank energy taken into consideration.

The jetta motor is putting out something on the order of 40kw at highway speed but it's completely irrelevant to the discussion. We already agreed if you go up to the reall monster 50'+ cats yes, they will burn more than 1 gal/hr but they the 10-15kw of solar will be lucky to get them up to 3kts. I've tried the 5hp dingy motor on my 34' cat and flat out calm conditions it almost reached 3kts. A 50'+ cat scales that up drastically.

4. Big generator requirement with all this solar and wind power? This is simply BS. I repeat again - for extended motoring there will be diesels still in place, what big generator for?!
If you are leaving the propulsion diesels in place why bother at all?

5. I'm repeating this 10th time. When you purchase the boat and convert it TO YOUR LIKING, ALL money spend will be initial investment. Someone will be fine with outdated electronics, for example, as long as it's in working condition. I would replace it and do not expect it "to pay for itself". It's just convenience. Same with solar/wind/battery/hybrid upgrade. For me - it's convenience not to use fossil fuel while anchored/during short trips. I'm not sure how else to explain this. I'm driving diesel truck. I paid so much more for it, that it NEVER EVER will pay for itself comparing to EXACTLY same gasoline truck. And there's more! It's way-way more expensive to fix if it breaks! But I'm happy that it doesn't suck huge amount of money every week on gas. So for me it's worth it.
Thank you for admitting you true purpose. You want to feel eco-friendly even if it does nothing actually eco-friendly.

As far as diesel pickups, we split time in the RV and I tell people who ask. Buy a diesel truck if you need to tow really big loads that go beyond what the gas trucks are rated for. It's stupid to buy one for small to moderate size loads.

6. There was one more "argument" - it's very heavy, so boat will never make it to other coast.

No one said it couldn't make it. It just won't make it as quickly or as comfortably.

In my first post I've already addressed that - this system makes more sense on bigger boat. I don't think extra couple tons will make difference on FP Sanya 57. It's extremely heavy already, and yet it sails good! And we're talking here about hybrid vs non-hybrid boat, right? Electic motors aren't heavy. Other stuff - huge solar array and huge bank of LiPo batteries - I'd have that anyway, even without hybrid drive. The reasons for that I've also explained above - to have unlimited fresh/hot water, electric cooking, AC and all other stuff just when I want it and for as long as I want it. So I won't need to be like other boaters - they start generator for an hour and run around like crazy, trying to charge batteries, take a shower, do laundry, charge dive tanks and have some cold air from AC all at the same time.

I think you are missing a key design principal. When you try to take things to extremes, it quickly gets out of control to where every design consideration is driven to meet that extreme and everything else suffers.

Example: In the car world, the Bugatti Veyron has something like 1200HP but it's only really good for straight line top speed because in order to support the weight and power of that engine, everything else needed to be made bigger and heavier. 300-400hp cars can make it around the track faster because they accept a more reasonable top end speed. Electric boats are basically the same problem in reverse. The only way they work is if you accept ever increasing limitations on performance.

[ranchero76]

"A 50'x25' boat has a total of 1250sft of deck space. Solar panels lose a tremendous amount of output with even a small shadow partially covering them. Your proposal would cover upwards of 72% of the deck space. How will you keep them clear of the shadows from the rig? Even the biggest bimini would be maybe 1/3 that size and even horizontally mounted create tremendous windage. $15k for the solar panels fits in with the $50k overall increase in cost. Probably triple that with a marinized pivoting and retractable system....oops, your right my $50k assumption got blown out of the water before we even got to electric motors or batteries."

You have to think outside the box, than you won't be limited by deck space And "marinized" pivoting and retracting system will be very simple one, can be even manual operated. Regarding the windage - that's retracting system is for, reducing solar area by 50% in higher winds (and still able to generate power in this position).
O, yea, about shadowing. Nature of sail boat gives no chance of mounting of solar panels completely shade-free. There's always will be shade somewhere. That's one of the reasons why I don't like sails .
Three things can be done - bigger array (that's one of the reasons why such huge solar array needed), proper connecting of panels, so shade will affect only these panels which are shaded, and third factor - shade really hurts when object is close to the panel. Further the object - less impact on solar panel output (remember, modern panels generate good power even on cloudy days, when "shade" is everywhere).

" I've tried the 5hp dingy motor on my 34' cat and flat out calm conditions it almost reached 3kts. A 50'+ cat scales that up drastically."

That's totally irrelevant as dingy motor has miserable torque and not proper prop

"If you are leaving the propulsion diesels in place why bother at all?"

I've explained it like 4 times just in this discussion, and getting a little tired

"Thank you for admitting you true purpose. You want to feel eco-friendly even if it does nothing actually eco-friendly."
Belive it or not - I don't really care about been eco-friendly, at least, not crazy about it.

"No one said it couldn't make it. It just won't make it as quickly or as comfortably."
Actually, that was joke. Kind of.

"Electric boats are basically the same problem in reverse. The only way they work is if you accept ever increasing limitations on performance."

So what kind of limitations? And remember we're talking about Hybrid boat, not electric boat. And Solar/wind/batteries are completely out of questions, I'd put them on the boat no matter what, for the reasons also been explained few times in this thread. Only difference - one is diesel propulsion, and another is SAME diesels plus electric parallel propulsion with two small 20-30kW electric motors and couplers added.

[Cap Erict3]

Originally Posted by ranchero76

Even though it's same all over again, I don't mind to repeat my point of view, and actually my point of view slightly changes as more information and options taken in consideration.

First argument - "it can't run for long period of time so you still must start engines/generator". Let see. Everyone says sailing/motoring is just 5% of time, 95% - anchoring or short trips between islands/ports etc.
And then, out of these 5%, how much time in real life sailor spends motoring? I bet not much. Because middle size cat will consume at least 2 gallons of diesel per hour of motoring, bigger - double of that. That's 48 gallons per 24 hours plus associated noise! That's $150 per day! Will get very expensive very quickly. So unless one won the lottery, he will try to not start engines often. Plus - electricity (generator) still needed for water maker, AC (if any), dehumidifier(s), dive compressor, propane needed for cooking, engine started for all these short trips between the islands (as you know almost all the wear engine gets at startups, until oil pressure is developed) etc, etc.

Now my point of view of good hybrid system and it's behavior.
I think it should be parallel setup. Yes, boat will be heavier this way and it probably makes sense only on bigger cats (say, 45' plus, when extra weight not as critical).
Powerful solar setup - must have. Big Li-Po battery bank - must have. Wind generator - I'd say must have. Currently I'm developing system, allowing to mount 7-15 kW of solar array on almost any bigger (45' plus) cat. What it will give you? Unlimited power for everything on the boat even on rainy day, even with partially shaded panels which you can not completely avoid on sailboat (and I'm talking
well equipped boat - with AC, electric stove, big fridge and all other comfort things). And even then, there will be some power for electric propulsion (but most likely still enough for that 95% of time when no long run needed and considered that you've been anchored previous days, your battery bank is full). So virtually, 95% of time boat not using fossil fuel at all. Out of remaining 5%, most likely 4.9% you will be sailing, right? Remaining 0.1% AND emergency situations - that's where you will need your diesel engines (but I'd still rather have this kind of "backup").

Second argument - it's too complicated, it will break, blablabla. Let me guess - you guys, probably afraid to drive modern cars while on hard, because afraid of "very complicated injector engines, data bus control and other modern crap? While it's actually true regarding the car, solar/hybrid system on boat not THAT complicated. Anyone with good electrical knowledge can fix/modify it. But of course, it will scare these who can't repair electric winch or stopped working AC.

Third argument - it's expensive. Well, this is actually correct one. All of described above only makes sense when newer expensive cat purchased, and hybrid conversion, along with solar/wind setup and battery bank will be part of initial investment. But from my point of view - all solar/wind/battery upgrades would be absolutely required anyway, along with repairs and other refit, so cost of installing hybrid drive at that point won't make huge difference. Why would I need such powerful solar setup, 4-6 kW wind generators and huge battery bank? So I can enjoy unlimited AC, unlimited fresh water, unlimited cooking, dehumidifiers to keep things dry and free of rust, unlimited use of dive compressor etc. All of this without starting engine/genset. It's just different point of view, opposite to minimalistic - having minimum comfort, minimum weight (for fastest speed, I guess? But sailing is just 5% of time, remember?) And yes, I know how to fix that stuff when it will break (or if I don't, I will learn, it's that simple).

Don't reckon I've seen a 6kw wind gen on a sailboat.

[ranchero76]

Originally Posted by Cap Erict3

Don't reckon I've seen a 6kw wind gen on a sailboat.

How about 2x3kW? Or 3x2kW? I haven't seen these either, but that doesn't mean it's impossible to mount them.

[44'cruisingcat]

Originally Posted by SDChristian

Don't really care. I'd base my comparison off a boat built for electric, rather than retrofitted. My personal assesment of the technology would simply compare your 3-4 liters to the same motoring hybrid with very low batteries. If the number was less, then throw in solar and regenerative benefits and hybrid starts to be pretty appealing. Overlooking the bad comparison due to outboards and petrol.

Point is, a hybrid will likely be so heavy it will use more fuel to motor more slowly, and won't sail at all, thus using even more fuel...

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by Cap Erict3

Don't reckon I've seen a 6kw wind gen on a sailboat.

I'm sure he's planning to use them to sail directly into the wind. Imagine the extra power he could get with the apparent wind and those 6kw generators driving the boat at 8kts into a 20kt wind.

As Scotty from StarTrek used to say...ya canot change the laws of physics (said in a bad Scottish accent)

[Jim Cate]

Originally Posted by ranchero76

How about 2x3kW? Or 3x2kW? I haven't seen these either, but that doesn't mean it's impossible to mount them.

Have you thought about how big the props must be to generate that sort of power? And, if attempting to get to windward, how much drag they would generate? And how much shade such beasts would cast upon the panels?

Numbers sure get in the way of dreams...

Jim

[four winds]

Have you looked at the size and weight of a 2kw wind gen? Don't they have like six foot blades? And you think you can find a place for three?

How about the weight of a 300w solar panel? 50 of them would be close to two tons. The supporting structure? A tilting structure with half of them retractable? Design by Rube Goldberg?

Three diesel engines, two electric motors, a battery bank only possible with lithium and still would take a large amount of space.

Man, you are way, way off the deep end.

But hey, you might make it work, and be the proud owner of the ugliest boat on the sea.

How's that for motivation?

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by ranchero76

"A 50'x25' boat has a total of 1250sft of deck space. Solar panels lose a tremendous amount of output with even a small shadow partially covering them. Your proposal would cover upwards of 72% of the deck space. How will you keep them clear of the shadows from the rig? Even the biggest bimini would be maybe 1/3 that size and even horizontally mounted create tremendous windage. $15k for the solar panels fits in with the $50k overall increase in cost. Probably triple that with a marinized pivoting and retractable system....oops, your right my $50k assumption got blown out of the water before we even got to electric motors or batteries."

You have to think outside the box, than you won't be limited by deck space And "marinized" pivoting and retracting system will be very simple one, can be even manual operated. Regarding the windage - that's retracting system is for, reducing solar area by 50% in higher winds (and still able to generate power in this position).
O, yea, about shadowing. Nature of sail boat gives no chance of mounting of solar panels completely shade-free. There's always will be shade somewhere. That's one of the reasons why I don't like sails .
Three things can be done - bigger array (that's one of the reasons why such huge solar array needed), proper connecting of panels, so shade will affect only these panels which are shaded, and third factor - shade really hurts when object is close to the panel. Further the object - less impact on solar panel output (remember, modern panels generate good power even on cloudy days, when "shade" is everywhere).

Good luck with building a retractable solar array for a couple hundred bucks. Even at 50% of the extended size, it's going to be larger than a large bimini by a good margin.

So your 15kw array might produce 5-7kw when shaded.


" I've tried the 5hp dingy motor on my 34' cat and flat out calm conditions it almost reached 3kts. A 50'+ cat scales that up drastically."

That's totally irrelevant as dingy motor has miserable torque and not proper prop

I wasn't talking about acceleration, so torque is largely irrelevant. This was giving the motor a couple minutes to get up to speed. Or are we back to magic electric HP again?


"If you are leaving the propulsion diesels in place why bother at all?"

I've explained it like 4 times just in this discussion, and getting a little tired

OK, you are keeping the original diesel engines for extra ballast or not. Your responses keep changing.


"Thank you for admitting you true purpose. You want to feel eco-friendly even if it does nothing actually eco-friendly."
Belive it or not - I don't really care about been eco-friendly, at least, not crazy about it.

Eco-belief was the only thing you had going for you.


"No one said it couldn't make it. It just won't make it as quickly or as comfortably."
Actually, that was joke. Kind of.

If you say so.


"Electric boats are basically the same problem in reverse. The only way they work is if you accept ever increasing limitations on performance."

So what kind of limitations? And remember we're talking about Hybrid boat, not electric boat. And Solar/wind/batteries are completely out of questions, I'd put them on the boat no matter what, for the reasons also been explained few times in this thread. Only difference - one is diesel propulsion, and another is SAME diesels plus electric parallel propulsion with two small 20-30kW electric motors and couplers added.

Limitations like top speed, continuous cruising speed, extra weight, less efficient, more complexity, cost, etc...

And now you've come out and admitted you are going to drop that 50-56' boat from what is typically 75hp per engine to 20-30kws electric motors. Unless we want to go back to the tired argument about magic electric HP, you are mostly just specifying a lower performance boat at a significantly higher price and in the end, there won't be any savings to justify it.

[ranchero76]

Originally Posted by four winds

Have you looked at the size and weight of a 2kw wind gen? Don't they have like six foot blades? And you think you can find a place for three?

How about the weight of a 300w solar panel? 50 of them would be close to two tons. The supporting structure? With half of them retractable? Design by Rube Goldberg?

Three diesel engines, two electric motors, a battery bank only possible with lithium and still would take a large amount of space.

Man, you are way, way off the deep end.

But hey, you might make it work, and be the proud owner of the ugliest boat on the sea.

How's that for motivation?

Wind generators are not that heavy, but yes, they have big wing span. Can be mounted on pole, out of reach.

One solar panel weights approx 20kg. So 50 of them - 1 ton, evenly distributed
In first post I gave 7kw-15kW range, I'd probably go with 11-12kW - better fit as my drawing shows (38 panels on 58ft boat)

[four winds]

Do you draw to scale?

I realise this is in the conceptual phase, but I'm thinking as the drawings progress reality is going to be bitch.

Ever seen a boat close to what you are dreaming up?


I've never seen a 300w panel at 20kg. That's 44lb and the panels I have seen are closer to 70lb.

[ranchero76]

OK, you are keeping the original diesel engines for extra ballast or not. Your responses keep changing.

Since post #1 I've stated - I'd use PARALLEL hybrid system with both old diesels in place. It's really sad that you gays simply do not bother to read from beginning.


Eco-belief was the only thing you had going for you.
Never ever mentioned that. When I'm mentioning "not using fossil fuel", I only mean that I don't want depend on it!

Limitations like top speed, continuous cruising speed, extra weight, less efficient, more complexity, cost, etc...

Wow! Considering both diesels still there, are all of these limitations coming just from dropping couple electric motors beside the diesels?! I mean - more initial cost - yes, but the rest?!

Unless we want to go back to the tired argument about magic electric HP, you are mostly just specifying a lower performance boat

Here are the numbers for smaller boat. 41'. Two 8kW motors (16kw combined). Top speed - 7.5 knots (!). At 75-percent power on both motors (12kW combined) - about 6.5 knots.
So you're saying, that more than 3 times of power (40kW vs 12kW!!) will not be enough for 58ft boat? Or Lagoon simply lied? May be THEIR motors have magic HP?
Lagoon 420 | Cruising World

[ranchero76]

Originally Posted by four winds

Do you draw to scale?

Yes. And while cat even has fly bridge, nothing mounted on its bimini. Like I answered before, you have to think outside the box to fit them They simply will not fit otherwise.